Encuentros - pros and cons

[ArbeeNYC]

ISame in NYC once I danced there long back. Some days slightly more women, some days slightly more men. Dancing at a few local milongas in Paris and Berlin, too I don’t remember registering too many followers to be called imbalance.

At crowded milongas does balance even matter unless it is very lopsided?

At local milongas in NYC, it varies a great deal. Some, with a younger crowd, tend to have more men. Others, with an older or more mixed crowd, tend to be somewhat balanced but often more men as well. It's rare to go to an event that is well balanced in terms of men/women. Sometimes there are more women (prácticas) but, again, it depends on the demographic. When were you here last? I've never danced on the West Coast myself.

 

[Bailango]

I tend to see more ladies "ironing" their seats, many with unhappy expressions on their faces and/or crossing their arms, than I do men, in the events that I have been to, even ones where a quick count and estimate indicated a more or less equal number of both roles,

Mostly dancing in balanced or slightly leader heavy scenes, I see this with both leaders and followers. Before Covid, I was very particular about music and danced only a few tandas a night. Now I dance a lot more. I will frequently ask unknown faces. There are some young women I will ask and some I don’t ask. I prefer dancing with those that are proficient enough. Yet there are many good dancers I don’t ask. Either they are sitting so far away that I can’t cabaceo. Or they are talking with their friends. Or I am not sure they want to dance with me. Age doesn’t factor in these decisions. There are 60+ followers who I dance with regularly and there are those in 20s and 30s. Sometimes there are followers seating facing the ronda with their backs to where most of the leaders are standing. I am not going to walk around to ask them. If they can’t turn around at least at the start of tanda to see if anyone wants to dance with them, that is on them for not getting dances. From what I see, those who want to dance do get there dances. Either with their friends, cliques or generally cultivating a crop of leaders they will dance with. There are some followers I see who don’t seem to want to dance and most leaders don’t try to ask them.

If a lady has her head buried in the phone or involved in talking with her friends without looking around at the start of the tanda, it indicates either she is not paying attention or doesn’t want to dance that tanda. As a leader it is an opportunity cost to try to catch attention of either instead of someone else available.

Therefore not all women being asked has varied reasons. It doesn’t have to do with skills and age. Though any follower with good skills is always in demand. Strictly taking from my perspective of dancing in balanced or leader heavy milongas. Good follower or an attractive follower can also be intimidating for many men to approach fearing that she is out of their league skillwise or dancewise. Then there are followers who are monopolized by certain leaders, which makes other leaders reluctant to dance ask them. Fairly or not, an impression gets created they might only want to dance with only those certain leaders.

Throwing light from the other side of men’s thinking process.

I think it kind of matters, insofar as keeping people happy with the dances they're getting. But then on one end, you have people who just want to dance as much as possible, and on the other you have people who won't dance unless the music is just right and they can dance with their partner of choice. Or the few who are content with one amazing tanda, which satisfies them for the night and leaves them with a dreamy smile. So I'm unsure actually.

Yes. These dynamics are always at play. The observant ones know who is picky about music and who likes to dance every as much as possible.

I have discovered some followers are better at dancing slower tempo tandas because it gives them more time to be stable after the movement. I might not want to dance fast rhythmic with them after once or twice discovering they struggle at it. Though I often forget who is not good at which type of music. This is mostly those with intermediate level experience or less.

Even when the roles are roughly balanced, you tend to see a (small?) group of leaders having their pick of followers and dancing whenever they want to, young/attractive and/or excellent followers dancing almost every tanda,

Among good dancers this happens often. Dancing with each other being of compatible level. Some of the good followers also happen to be young attractive.

The other young followers get asked by rest of the leaders. So yeah, you will see them more often on the dance floor. Just as you will see the guy that goes around asking verbally or is aggressive in asking. How many times have I been cut off because someone cabaceo-blocked me by walking upto the follower and asking from close quarters. Close quarter is anywhere eight feet or less.

I don’t think there is a solution to either Other than people being more empathic to everyone. Then tango tends to be elitist and snobbish to an extent. How do you break that viscous cycle ?

If I had to give an estimate, it was probably about 10% of followers sitting down every tanda? At least, that was what I observed at an ostensibly role-balanced tango marathon.

Which means 10% of the men are also sitting out.

 

[Bailango]

I’m at plenty of milongas with way too many women sitting around frustrated, but at special events, surprisingly it mostly evens out, regardless of wether there’s a role balance or not, is my experience. This goes for both the US and Europe.

Well, frankly, I can’t imagine how a guy feeling awkward for declining is anywhere near the frustration of spending a lot of effort dolling up and only getting a single pity dance all evening. Take a risk once in a while! I know excellent excellent dancers who don’t get that first dance chance.

My original reason for joining the Tango forum was people defending the choice of not wanting to dance with unknown person. Or sticking to only those known to them. I heard tango people express that sentiment everywhere. It really baffles me the length to which tango dancers go to defend why they only dance with certain known people and good dancers.

And then you have those followers who get a disproportionate number of dances. So a headcount is not enough. It’s definitely a vicious circle. If you sit too long you get frustrated and then you send negative vibes. Even if you put on that fake smile and work the body language. Also, a lot of women sit and wait around instead of being proactive, but it can be humiliating to try too hard also. Many of us start leading just to help each other get out of the seat.

In my experience women who lead also ask the same followers that men ask. They are mostly their friends. All women I know who lead do it only part-time.

I have a follower friend. Some days she gets lot of dances. Some days she doesn’t and is frustrated like your narration above. Same venue, same weekly milonga, same people. It can swing between feast and famine for her. I think I know the reason why. I never seen over half a dozen women who will switch to leading ever ask her.

From leader’s perspective I have outlined reasons that inhibit me from asking. That means almost means 30% of the women whom I won’t ask. I got nothing against them. Would gladly dance if I could. After a while they probably think I don’t want to or don’t like to dance with them. It becomes a habit and is mutual. Once that inertia sets in, it is difficult to break out of it.

There are other 30% I will like to dance with but don’t get chance to ask. And remaining 30% that I end up dancing with. Which means I don’t get to dance with 60% of the followers on any given day.

People I dance with are microcosm of the crowd. I dance with skilled dancers, not skilled, old, young, tall, short, heavy, slim, etc. My not asking list is also similarly made up of skilled, unskilled, old, young, short, heavy, slim, etc. I will make an extra attempt to dance with unknown or someone I observed not being asked for an extended period.

 

[Tango Distance]

I used to think that the reason I get a lot of dances towards the later hours was because people had finally noticed me dance and wanted to dance with me. But now I’m afraid it’s maybe only because the better dancers had run out of other partners with energy

For my dear wife, there is data it is the former. Even when we don't know anyone, if I lead her to start (usually 2 or 3 tandas), she'll get asked immediately, and dance with good leaders the whole night. If she leads me, she'll often not get asked for a while, or gets asked late in the tanda, or gets asked by mediocre leaders and it takes a while for the good leaders to start asking her.

Well, frankly, I can’t imagine how a guy feeling awkward for declining is anywhere near the frustration of spending a lot of effort dolling up and only getting a single pity dance all evening. Take a risk once in a while! I know excellent excellent dancers who don’t get that first dance chance.

We'll have a little festival weekend here, and get out-of-state dancers. People that travel for Tango are often quite good. To my surprise, leaders from my area will dominantly ask the local ladies, and ask the visitors very little. Several times this situation has occurred: A middle aged lady comes by herself, and sits half the night. After I ask her, she'll dance nonstop the rest of the night. Our community is small enough you don't have to miss a single person to dance with the visitor. Thankfully, my little community has been getting better about this.

then you have those followers who get a disproportionate number of dances. So a headcount is not enough. It’s definitely a vicious circle. If you sit too long you get frustrated and then you send negative vibes. Even if you put on that fake smile and work the body language. Also, a lot of women sit and wait around instead of being proactive, but it can be humiliating to try too hard also.

It seems like someone going to a donut tray and grabbing 3 donuts, when it is clear there are already not enough donuts to go around. Why don't the ladies take care of each other more? (BTW, men are to blame here, too.) I agree on looking mad because you aren't getting asked is a vicious circle. Thanks to a post here on DF (forget who it was), I try to look past an unhappy look and have found gems that way.

The tallest guys are the only ones willing to almost always take a risk with a tall follower they haven’t seen dance. Just this weekend I had two tall guys outright tell me they asked me up purely because of my height without seeing me dance. I’d imagine the same advantage would be there for the really short girls to attempt to get their first dance with the short guys.

Taller ladies often tell me they like dancing with a taller leader, so I give them some priority. I haven't seen that short ladies have trouble getting dances; indeed two super short ladies, make that the shortest adult dancers I have seen in person, were truly excellent dancers and in high demand.

I try to ask tall ladies, sitting in the corner by themselves introverts, newbies, and visitors, as well as my regular friends. I have noticed beginners tend to leave early, so I try to ask them early. I have had multiple people compliment me at out-of-state events, saying "It's so nice you dance with everybody!" If you read my "Not Touchy Feely" thread, and note my alias and avatar, I certainly didn't start as a regular close embrace, dance with many people kind of guy. I have "My Tango" I enjoy, but maybe it's a little different than most. One of my things, that likely relates, is I generally don't dance with the same lady twice in the same night (except for my dear wife (DW)). Maybe that is part of why I'm more diverse in my asking. I also enjoy the challenges of getting a newbie to do new things and mistake recovery. BTW, it's pretty rare any more, but I'll still sometimes have a night where I only dance a few tandas with DW and no one else.

Swinging in a new direction: Hmmmm, maybe reaching out to new sources could help gender balance? A slightly autistic engineer or two could be a good addition to a scene short on leaders.

 

[itwillhappen]

My original reason for joining the Tango forum was people defending the choice of not wanting to dance with unknown person. Or sticking to only those known to them. I heard tango people express that sentiment everywhere. It really baffles me the length to which tango dancers go to defend why they only dance with certain known people and good dancers.

With "length to which" and "go to defend" you try to subliminally devalue this behaviour, that's no use. (Nor is there any use inventing rules (the codigos) or values (the tango culture).) Whatever the participants do, it is reasonable and beneficial for them.

So if I notice in a large community that a group of followers are not interested in me or in unknown leaders in general, then they probably have enough well-known and sufficiently good leaders at hand. And in the past, further experimentation with tourists hasn't paid off.

I then assess as neutrally as possible how important it is to me, how often I want to get there, how many resources I want to use.

 

[itwillhappen]

Well, frankly, I can’t imagine how a guy feeling awkward for declining is anywhere near the frustration of spending a lot of effort dolling up and only getting a single pity dance all evening. Take a risk once in a while! I know excellent excellent dancers who don’t get that first dance chance.

That is certainly true. Only - with voluntary participants there must be a beneficial balance between positive and negative aspects, and be it because there are no alternatives, otherwise they would not be there.
Why exactly are women sitting there enduring massive negative experiences?

And then you shouldn't just look at the gender ratio at specific milongas, it's also about 1:1 at my regular milonga. My point of view is shaped by the gender ratio when it comes to interest(!) in beginner courses. And that was already 3:1 in my youth in dance school. And the difference between are mostly silent dropouts.

"Take a risk", the subliminal accusation of cowardice, doesn't concern me personally either. And "getting a single pity dance" wouldn't really shake me either, wouldn't make me consider to give up. Because I could choose alternative boundary conditions and continue.

 

[itwillhappen]

One high level dancer told me he’d blindly invite up anyone there because the level was so high you couldn’t go wrong.

Then there is the question of the root cause, the mechanism behind it.
These can also be obstacles to access that are not directly recognizable, such as limited information, high costs and the formation of groups - or directly an encuentro with a personal selection.

 

[pianistamediano]

Sometimes there are followers seating facing the ronda with their backs to where most of the leaders are standing. I am not going to walk around to ask them. If they can’t turn around at least at the start of tanda to see if anyone wants to dance with them, that is on them for not getting dances.

If a lady has her head buried in the phone or involved in talking with her friends without looking around at the start of the tanda, it indicates either she is not paying attention or doesn’t want to dance that tanda. As a leader it is an opportunity cost to try to catch attention of either instead of someone else available.

Indeed; it's not worth spending a few seconds trying to make eye contact with these kinds of followers. If they want to dance, they'll be ready and looking at the leaders of their choice.

There are some followers I see who don’t seem to want to dance and most leaders don’t try to ask them.

Curious; this reminds me of a follower I see every now and then, who goes to the milonga, only ever dances with three or four men (or less, if they aren't there), and spends the rest of the time wrapped up in her shawl, glaring at the dance floor or having an annoyed look on her face. I've tried to cabeceo her a few times, but gave up when she wouldn't look in my direction at all.

Good follower or an attractive follower can also be intimidating for many men to approach fearing that she is out of their league skillwise or dancewise.

Perhaps the reluctance to approach and whatnot is justified if you consider the (many) cases where such a follower only seems to dance with equally good/attractive leaders, and declines walk-up invitations from desperados (well, depending on the scene). Maybe it's that she only dances with them, maybe it's that they are the only ones brave (?) enough to invite her.

In the past month, I've managed to successfully invite a few followers like that and it turned out quite well, and in a later milonga, one even wanted to dance a tanda with me so much that she was changing seats to get a better line of sight, so I've gotten over some of my residual intimidation from when I was still a beginner.

I have discovered some followers are better at dancing slower tempo tandas because it gives them more time to be stable after the movement. I might not want to dance fast rhythmic with them after once or twice discovering they struggle at it. Though I often forget who is not good at which type of music. This is mostly those with intermediate level experience or less.

Very true; I am a slave to the music, so if they struggle at something like Biagi or Troilo, which tends to require much precision and a great sense for the lead, I try to instead ask them during a nice Canaro or a mellow Fresedo. In the last event I attended, there was a lovely lady in her 70s that could not quite handle something as intense as '50s Pugliese the way I dance it, from what I felt of her, so . Our last dance was a very fun and light Donato tanda, ending with Gato.

Which means 10% of the men are also sitting out.

Just to clarify — a few of the men who weren't dancing were either trying to invite or watching the dance floor, but most of them were just drinking, eating or chatting with their friends and having a good time. The majority of women who were not dancing were just sitting, looking for an invitation or watching the dance floor. I don't think all of them were enjoying that. I think the disparity in actions and body language does say something. But all this is from observation and rough estimates.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

That means almost means 30% of the women whom I won’t ask. I got nothing against them. Would gladly dance if I could. After a while they probably think I don’t want to or don’t like to dance with them. It becomes a habit and is mutual. Once that inertia sets in, it is difficult to break out of it.

I know the feeling. At some milongas, the percentage is higher than 30% though. You learn to be patient.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I dance with skilled dancers, not skilled, old, young, tall, short, heavy, slim, etc.

Ahh, I'm more selective than that. I prefer dancing with good dancers who are about my height. That leaves out a number of taller, heavier women.

 

[Bailango]

Ahh, I'm more selective than that. I prefer dancing with good dancers who are about my height. That leaves out a number of taller, heavier women.

There are times I will turn selective. May be the later part of milonga. Or when there more dancers that I want to. Sometimes my preferable have all been taken, then I will switch to random mode.

 

[itwillhappen]

In a way, the point of an encuentro is that you don't have to be overly selective. The organizer is responsible for ensuring that the participants dance so well on average that they are worth the journey and overnight stays. You are product and customer at the same time.

 

[opendoor]

..I dance with skilled dancers, not skilled, old, young, tall, short, heavy, slim, etc... someone I observed not being asked..

Congratulations. I only can dance with super slim advanced followers of 1.60 to 1.65 m height.

 

[Bailango]

Congratulations. I only can dance with super slim advanced followers of 1.60 to 1.65 m height.

If you have an abundant supply of them, please send them this way.

 

[ardix]

Note on the encuentros: it seems like this is where you find the 'milongueros viejos' of good old Europe (no pun intented - a lady just told me, at an encuentro I am at, that there are no milongueros viejos left in Baires )