Feeling the Man's Steps?

[Nathan]

I think I know what you are trying to say, but since you used the term "embellishment" I was responding to that alone.

If the pair are dancing a "give and take" sort of dance where hijacking the lead or deliberately doing something that changes the leader's intention, then yes, maybe she needs to know a lot more than the usual amount about where the leader is. However, by definition, an embellishment is supposed to avoid altering the lead or getting in the way of the lead. In fact, it's ok if the leader doesn't even notice them.

So although certain ways of relating to one another in the dance (such as styles where the follower has a great deal more say in what steps occur) may require that the follower have the awareness you speak of, I stick to my view that it should not be necessary for embellishments.

Sort of... what I was referring to is the grey area between those two concepts: unled movements that are big enough to be felt and possibly dangerous if not done with care, but that don't interfere with the lead either. Does that make sense?

 

[Subliminal]

The claim that "the man should step in such a way that the woman can feel his steps" and the claim that the lead should come from the chest only are not in contradiction.

I don't know about the referred discussions, but one reason why a close embrace leader might not want to step so smoothly as to not let the follower feel his steps is to let her enjoy how he plays with the rhythm with his steps.

Now undoubtedly _most_ leaders have a problem of not stepping smoothly enough to make the close embrace comfortable and/or have a problem with leading with the chest (ahem, with the entire upper connection) exclusively. And so the best advice for most leaders is to try to disassociate more and to try to take smoother steps. But when someone becomes so smooth as to not let any information about the step get through, this can come as a loss for the follower in understanding the leaders musical interpretation.

I'm not sure I agree with your use of dissassociate here. In a fluid walk, there is no dissassociation unless you're outside partner.

Telling a leader to take smoother steps can also be a little misleading. Some people might take that to mean step lighter, which is the opposite of what you want.

I do agree completely about the musicality though. With a good walk, you can communicate a lot of the feeling of the music. It's not just about the follower feeling your feet, but how you interpret the length of a note, starting from the floor, up through your feet and legs, then through the spiral motion of your entire body.

 

[opendoor]

..were taught how to go into "crossed system" by taking an extra step. The man does this smoothly so that the woman either doesn't feel it, or knows she is supposed to ignore it. ..
What have you all been taught in this regard?

Think that is the rule, it should be this way. The woman must not care about crossed or parallel system. It is the leader´s task. So if something does not work, the leader is to blame (as with almost everything in TA), may be there was not enough body dissociation, or a mistake in choosing the outside stepping track.

As a BR dancer, this is probably my biggest cross-over challenge: tuning out the "noise" he makes with his feet and having confidence that what I'm feeling from his body is what he wants.

We were talking about crossed system. But in parallel system there is really a clear signal. It is called step projecting. So I can send the follower the information of the step size. This avoids the clashing of the knees.

One leader I dance with occasionally does this thing where he steps back, does two quick weight changes and then steps forward again. I wasn't sure before if I was supposed to try to do the weight changes too, but I just couldn't seem to keep up and do them. Now I feel more comfortable that I was right in not doing them!

Sometimes leaders do some adornos and tapping on the spot, weight changes and some other stepping. The follower may also do some fancy stuff during this moments.

 

[ant]

His feet only matter to her when they are a problem, and if she's doing what he led, then it's HIS problem to fix, not the follower's problem because she didn't know what he was doing with them or something

I would have thought that you may be feeling the amount of energy being created from the floor by the leader as giving a guide to the amount of energy you need to put in your equivalent movement. Anyway thats what I have been taught.

 

[UKDancer]

As a BR dancer, this is probably my biggest cross-over challenge: tuning out the "noise" he makes with his feet and having confidence that what I'm feeling from his body is what he wants.

At the risk of hijacking this thread into a continuation of the recent 'Cross-Over' one, I would say that there arre two things here to consider.

The first is that a BR leader may be relatively unaware of the extend to which his upper body is not 'still' (particularly laterally) during step movements, and is actually generating too much step-based noise, which then becomes hard to tune out of.

The other is that while a decent BR dancer already leads by intention: the body moves first; the different degree of forward balance, and the stress on upper body movement for AT leading means that a beginning AT leader may be getting the balance of these elements wrong while sincerely believing that he is doing what the instructor suggested. A BR analogy [BR technique alert: do not read next sentence if you want to read exclusively about AT!] might be a beginners attempt at CBM & sway. They think they are doing both, indeed they feel that they are doing both to a huge extent, but no one else can see or feel a thing. The opposite can be true: we can believe that we have eradicated something which is not helpful in AT, but it's still there really...

Of course this only applies if the leader is a beginning AT dancer from the BR world. If the issue is that a beginning follower can't tune out an experienced leaders steps, then either the leader has got lazy and into bad habits and is allowing his body to create the wrong noise, or possibly, that the follower is so used to tuning into step patters, that the body has (possibly subconsciously) actually gone looking for them. That the result is confusing is inevitable, given the relationship between lead and steps in the dance.

 

[Mladenac]

I would have thought that you may be feeling the amount of energy being created from the floor by the leader as giving a guide to the amount of energy you need to put in your equivalent movement. Anyway thats what I have been taught.

I completely agree.

The feeling how much leader put weight certain leg helps in sudden changes of direction and variations of speed.

 

[mshedgehog]

Interesting points. I mostly cannot tell what the man is doing with his feet, especially if he is very quick, and I don't need to, it's not relevant to what he's leading. But I'm not saying it would be a bad thing.

It occurs to me that what you heard could have nothing much to do with the lead, it could be a way of telling the man to be 'grounded' (for example not having his knees too stiff, or curving his axis by bending sideways or wriggling). If I make those kinds of mistakes as a follower, then the man cannot tell which foot I am on, and he may tread on my toes. Both dancers being grounded contributes a lot to the feeling of being one thing with four legs. So that could be what they were driving at. Not so much part of the leading, but good for the overall hanging together.

 

[Peaches]

I would have thought that you may be feeling the amount of energy being created from the floor by the leader as giving a guide to the amount of energy you need to put in your equivalent movement. Anyway thats what I have been taught.

Well, yes. But that doesn't really mean we should be feeling what he's doing with his feet and each step he takes. The man could be dancing a jig with his feet--what matters to us as followers is what he leads us to do--what he does with his center and asks for of us.

 

[LoveTango]

I feel that the leader should intentionally let followers feel certain steps while intentionally hide certain steps, such the extra step they put in to get into cross system, or the leaders embellishment.

In general I (as follower) don't need to know what the leader is doing with his/her feet. However, I think, if I can feel the steps (they don't have to be very pronounced), I can position my feet more accurately, and step or change weight more timely, so to make the dance more smooth and better balance for both.

Of course, the lead is not dependent on the feeling of steps.

 

[Zoopsia59]

if I can feel the steps (they don't have to be very pronounced), I can position my feet more accurately, and step or change weight more timely, .

I don't position my feet based on knowledge of the position of his feet. I position them based on where he LEADS me to position them (combined with proper reaching and stepping technique of my own). Hopefully he places his own feet in a manner consistent with his lead. If he doesn't, then that's something he needs to work on. If I reach improperly for his lead, that's something I need to work on.. it has nothing to do with knowing where his feet are because my feet are supposed to go somewhere based on their relation to MY body, not to his feet. He needs to lead my body to the right place for my feet to end up where he needs them. (assuming my own technique is sound... if it isn't, then he would naturally have trouble getting my feet to an expected place)

I also don't change weight based on the timing of his footwork. I change it based on him leading me to change weight. Again, hopefully his feet are in the correct place for the weight changes he leads. If they aren't, then once again, he needs to fix that.

Of course, all this is easier said than done which is why so many people look down at each other's feet (or their own) while dancing. But leading or following based on where the other person's feet are isn't a good way anyway.

 

[LoveTango]

I don't position my feet based on knowledge of the position of his feet. I position them based on where he LEADS me to position them (combined with proper reaching and stepping technique of my own). Hopefully he places his own feet in a manner consistent with his lead. If he doesn't, then that's something he needs to work on. If I reach improperly for his lead, that's something I need to work on.. it has nothing to do with knowing where his feet are because my feet are supposed to go somewhere based on their relation to MY body, not to his feet. He needs to lead my body to the right place for my feet to end up where he needs them. (assuming my own technique is sound... if it isn't, then he would naturally have trouble getting my feet to an expected place)

I also don't change weight based on the timing of his footwork. I change it based on him leading me to change weight. Again, hopefully his feet are in the correct place for the weight changes he leads. If they aren't, then once again, he needs to fix that.

Of course, all this is easier said than done which is why so many people look down at each other's feet (or their own) while dancing. But leading or following based on where the other person's feet are isn't a good way anyway.

Do you compromise when you dance with less experienced leader?

 

[Zoopsia59]

Do you compromise when you dance with less experienced leader?

That depends on what you mean by "compromise".

 

[ant]

Well, yes.

We agree up to here then.

But that doesn't really mean we should be feeling what he's doing with his feet and each step he takes

I would suggest that you should. I would agree that you will not always be given important information to act upon. As an example, when walking in a consistant way the direction, timing, speed and length of step are established but it is still be conveyed with each step, however the first indication of a change will normally be conveyed by the leader by a different quality of connection to the floor and as such you will be aware that a new intention will be coming through the chest. So when a leader does want to convey something in this way it will often be the followers first indication of a change in what is happening and I would suggest this is important information.

The man could be dancing a jig with his feet

I would suggest that if the leader is not expecting you to do something when he doing a jig he is not actively leading at that point.

--what matters to us as followers is what he leads us to do

I agree

--what he does with his center

I agree

--what matters to us as followers is what he leads us to do--what he does with his center and asks for of us

However taking your post as a whole, as with the OP you appear to be suggesting that it is only through his centre that the leader conveys his message to the follower. Not only do I disagree with this but it appears to a contradiction to the first part of your post.


I would say that the intention of the leader through the chest conveys direction and the type movement required but the connection of his feet through the floor gives an indication of the energy required and as regards timing this will be determined by the partnerships joint connection to the music, their connection through the chest, there individual connections to the floor and maybe other aspects.

So in my opinion a lead is not only about the intention through the chest, there are other aspects as well. In this instance the OP appears to suggest excluding the leaders feet, although this was not defined.


If this means the quality of the leaders foot connection to the floor then IMO it should not be ignored. If it was meant that both leaders and followers should not be looking at each others feet then I do agree.

 

[ant]

I don't position my feet based on knowledge of the position of his feet. I position them based on where he LEADS me to position them (combined with proper reaching and stepping technique of my own). ...it has nothing to do with knowing where his feet are

How does the above apply in relation to side steps, for instance what qualities would you expect in the lead of side steps of various length?

because my feet are supposed to go somewhere based on their relation to MY body, not to his feet.,

In itself this is a truism but in relationship to the side step question above how do you square this statement off. I have been taught that the length of the followers side step is usually determined according to where the leader puts (or on some occassions appear to put) his foot.

 

[opendoor]

..So in my opinion a lead is not only about the intention through the chest, there are other aspects as well. In this instance the OP appears to suggest excluding the leaders feet, although this was not defined.

Hi I would agree, but I can follow Peaches, as well. Leading through the chest or by the centre is a didactical advice for beginners. We cannot reduce the lead to a certain part of the body. The whole entire body is involved in the lead. Sometimes the lead is transmitted by my chest, by my feet, by my hands, arms, and especially by my head. The least I can say is, that all these body parts may not contradict each other when leading. When doing rulos, enrosques, soltadas the chest cannot be the conveyer, so another part of your body will fill in.