Feeling the Man's Steps?

[ant]

And you said it yourself... it will be coming through his chest.

It seems to me you have highlighted the part of the quote that suits you and have ignored what was actually being said

Originally posted by ant
As an example, when walking in a consistant way the direction, timing, speed and length of step are established but it is still be conveyed with each step, however the first indication of a change will normally be conveyed by the leader by a different quality of connection to the floor and as such you will be aware that a new intention will be coming through the chest. So when a leader does want to convey something in this way it will often be the followers first indication of a change in what is happening and I would suggest this is important information.

As I said above the connection to the floor is the followers first indication and you appear to have ignored this.

The quality of the leader's connection to the floor is important for his overall technique. If he isn't connected, then everything suffers. WHERE his feet are on the floor is not something the follower should have to worry about

Again you appear to be contributing words to me that I did not say. I have been talking about the quality of the connection to the floor and from this point of view the leaders feet should not be ignored, I have not said the positon of his feet on the floor. (side step excepted which I will comment on in relation to the question raised on this matter.)

 

[ant]

In sidesteps, I go with his body and maintain my relationship to it unless he deliberately prevents me (as might be the case if he is stepping further than he wants me in order to get outside of me) Where he puts his foot might determine where his body goes, but I'm going with his body, not his foot.

So you are saying that you will not move your foot until the leader moves his body, even though the leader may already have moved and positioned his foot ready to transfer his weight.

Where the leader gives an intention with his first foot placement to indicate that is where he wants you to place his foot and once this message has been established moves his body to an offset position you will still follow his body?

 

[dchester]

So you are saying that you will not move your foot until the leader moves his body, even though the leader may already have moved and positioned his foot ready to transfer his weight.

Where the leader gives an intention with his first foot placement to indicate that is where he wants you to place his foot and once this message has been established moves his body to an offset position you will still follow his body?

Isn't this part of what needs to happen, to get into cross system? The leader should be able to move his foot AND make a weight change, without the follower making a step.

 

[ant]

Isn't this part of what needs to happen, to get into cross system? The leader should be able to move his foot AND make a weight change, without the follower making a step.

I am not talking about going into cross system I am talking about a simple side step in the first part of the post and still a side step but ending up off set to the follower on the second part of the post. It seems to me that Zoops and I have totally different thinking on this, which surprises me so I am seeking clarification.

As I understand it Zoops has said that she will not move into her sidestep until the leader moves his body. This is my post for my original question and her post for the answer

Originally Posted by ant
How does the above apply in relation to side steps, for instance what qualities would you expect in the lead of side steps of various length?

Originally posted by Zoopsia 59 In sidesteps, I go with his body and maintain my relationship to it unless he deliberately prevents me (as might be the case if he is stepping further than he wants me in order to get outside of me) Where he puts his foot might determine where his body goes, but I'm going with his body, not his foot.

In my opinion she will be causing a disjointed connection if this is the case. I would suggest that she should be aware of where the leaders free foot is moving prior to any weight change and move her free foot with his. Of course the follower will normally execute her weight change when she feels the leader affecting his but they should both already have positioned their free foot to accept this weight change.

 

[AndaBien]

...I would suggest that she should be aware of where the leaders free foot is moving prior to any weight change and move her free foot with his. Of course the follower will normally execute her weight change when she feels the leader affecting his but they should both already have positioned their free foot to accept this weight change.

I agree with Zoops. The leader moving his feet does not constitute a lead. Only the movement of his upper body does that.

 

[ant]

I agree with Zoops. The leader moving his feet does not constitute a lead. Only the movement of his upper body does that.

So from the followers point of view, you would ignore the side movement in order to postion the free foot.

 

[AndaBien]

So from the followers point of view, you would ignore the side movement in order to postion the free foot.

If the side movement was with the leaders foot only, I think it should be ignored. If the leaders upper body makes the slightest upper-body move to the side, the follower would either begin or take a side step.

I think a leader should be able to extend his L foot to the left and also lead his partner to extend her foot to her own left, leading with his upper body.

I like the idea that a follower could follow with her eyes closed, responding only the the place where she connects to her partner.

 

[ant]

If the side movement was with the leaders foot only, I think it should be ignored. If the leaders upper body makes the slightest upper-body move to the side, the follower would either begin or take a side step.

I think a leader should be able to extend his L foot to the left and also lead his partner to extend her foot to her own left, leading with his upper body.

I like the idea that a follower could follow with her eyes closed, responding only the the place where she connects to her partner.

I think we disagree then.

I would suggest that the lead for the side step starts with the quality of the leaders connection with the floor. If done correctly then it will indicate to the follower the direction of the next movement (sideways) without moving his upper body. I would suggest that the leader can then move his free foot without moving his upper body and expect the follower to mirror this, without looking at his foot. When the leader has placed his foot in the desired position he will then move his weight onto the foot and follower will do the same.

It seems to me that your method requires the follower to look at the leaders chest or be behind the leader or be pushed by the leader and whatever the case, cause the follower to snatch her step.

I would also suggest that you have not answered how the leader can end up in an offset position to the follower.

 

[Zoopsia59]

It seems to me you have highlighted the part of the quote that suits you and have ignored what was actually being said

Actually it seems to me that you and I don't actually disagree all that much, so I'm not sure why you think I'm ignoring what you say.

however the first indication of a change will normally be conveyed by the leader by a different quality of connection to the floor and as such you will be aware that a new intention will be coming through the chest.

Which I will feel through his chest because that's where I'm connected to him.

I don't know why this is an argument.. I agree with what you say about the leader's technique here, but I'm saying that as a follower, I FEEL what you are talking about through his body and I'm not consciously aware of his feet in this process.

The follower's awareness of the leader's connection to the floor is simply an awareness of how stable he is. Can't speak for other followers on this, but I don't think of that in terms of his feet specifically. There's no analyzing of his feet to give me info about his stability. As for being aware of the first inclinations of his impending movement, I don't depend on movement of his feet for me to know. Some leads come without moving the feet at all, so for me, I first feel the lead in his body. You may be right in that the first indication comes from his connection to the floor, but I feel his connection to the floor through my connection to his BODY.

 

[AndaBien]

I think we disagree then...

I guess so.

...connection with the floor...

You keep mentioning this, but I really don't know what you mean by it. If you mean the interface between the bottom of the leaders shoe and the surface of the floor, I don't know how I can have any effect on it.

...I would suggest that the leader can then move his free foot without moving his upper body and expect the follower to mirror this...

Not at all. I do not want my partner to respond to what I do with my free foot.

...I would also suggest that you have not answered how the leader can end up in an offset position to the follower.

Easy. I lead her to remain in place while I take steps to the offset position.

 

[Zoopsia59]

As I understand it Zoops has said that she will not move into her sidestep until the leader moves his body. This is my post for my original question and her post for the answer

In my opinion she will be causing a disjointed connection if this is the case. I would suggest that she should be aware of where the leaders free foot is moving prior to any weight change and move her free foot with his. Of course the follower will normally execute her weight change when she feels the leader affecting his but they should both already have positioned their free foot to accept this weight change.

I begin my reach when I first feel his intention. I feel his intention in his body. The reason I feel it may be that he has moved his foot, but I am not connected to his leg, I'm connected to his body (and I certainly don't want to be looking at his leg!) so if he keeps his body absolutely still, I won't feel it. If I was going by his leg movement, I might take steps he didn't want me to take.

Once the direction of his intention is clear, I reach that direction without placing weight on my free leg until I'm led to. To me, the follower's free leg is her's to do with whatever she wants until she is led to do something specific. The leader's movement of his own leg while keeping his body still is not a lead for me to do something specific with my free leg. Once he starts to move sideways, forward, or wherever, by even a slight pressure in his body, it is my responsibility to get my leg there without being sluggish. Most leaders I've danced with are not reaching way over to the side, way in advance of beginning a weight transfer. It's obvious fairly quickly that he is going to be making a sidestep.

So I THINK the answer is
No, I would not move into my sidestep if the leader hasn't moved his body. To my mind doing so would be the case of a disconnection, not the other way around.

However, followers make a distinction between reaching the free leg and moving into the step, so it could be that we aren't talking about the same thing here. In my view, the leader indicates what direction the follower should be reaching by a change in his body albeit very slight. You seem to be advocating that the leader can move his foot without changing his body and have the follower take that as an indication to reach a certain way.

IMO, until the leader gives an indication in his body, she has the option of using her free leg anyway she wants.

 

[Zoopsia59]

So from the followers point of view, you would ignore the side movement in order to postion the free foot.

Side movement of what? I'm not sure the situation we're debating actually exists. I don't know any leaders who can reach to the side without ANY change in their body. Usually the change I feel first in a sidestep after being still is a downward motion (getting deeper in the knees) That's often a clue that a large sidestep is coming, and going down often makes my free leg go out to the side. If I haven't gotten any indications, I might be doing lapis movements with my free leg and it heads in the right direction as soon as I know what direction is the right direction.

I've never had anyone complain that I'm slow to respond or lagging behind. More often I get comments on how easy I am to move and how light I am.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I would suggest that the lead for the side step starts with the quality of the leaders connection with the floor. If done correctly then it will indicate to the follower the direction of the next movement (sideways) without moving his upper body.

I really don't know how a follower could tell the leaders connection to the floor changed if he makes NO change in the part of his body that she is connected to. In fact, changing the connection to the floor without any movement in the body is one of the harder things for leaders to learn when they WANT to make a weight change without the follower doing it also.

Maybe you don't realize how NOT STILL leaders' bodies are! There's indication coming thorugh even when they don't want there to be, but you seem to be working from a premise that there are times when there is NO indication even when you aren't trying for that.

That hasn't been my experience.

Hence the difficulty followers have dealing with the "signal to noise ratio", especially given that some leaders have VERY subtle leads making it even harder to know what is real and what is to be ignored. Leaders' bodies are almost NEVER totally still even when they want to be.

I can't imagine a case where the leader isn't even trying to keep his body still, that it becomes so still that the follower feels NOTHING through it. so I'm really not understanding what situation you are attempting to discuss.

I think as followers gain more experience, they get much better at picking up on smaller more subtle indications in the body, but learning what can be ignored becomes inversely more complicated as they start picking up on more.

 

[dchester]

I am not talking about going into cross system I am talking about a simple side step in the first part of the post and still a side step but ending up off set to the follower on the second part of the post. It seems to me that Zoops and I have totally different thinking on this, which surprises me so I am seeking clarification.

As I understand it Zoops has said that she will not move into her sidestep until the leader moves his body. This is my post for my original question and her post for the answer

In my opinion she will be causing a disjointed connection if this is the case.I would suggest that she should be aware of where the leaders free foot is moving prior to any weight change and move her free foot with his. Of course the follower will normally execute her weight change when she feels the leader affecting his but they should both already have positioned their free foot to accept this weight change.

Possibly I still don't know what you are really talking about, but if I want the follower to do a side step, I lead it with my chest, and not my feet. BTW, when I'm leading a side step, my foot doesn't normally move before my chest does. Also, I use disassociation to keep the connection if I want her offset (stepping outside the follower), so it's still from the chest.

What you appear to be saying sounds so alien to me, it makes me wonder if I am not really understanding what you mean (or there's an aspect/technique of leading that I know nothing about).

 

[Ray Sison]

I've been reading comments in the past few months that read in effect, the man should step in such a way that the woman can feel his steps.

I was taught that the man leads with his body, and that the woman follows the man's body; or more exactly his "center".
We were given exercises to practice just this; the man moving his feet in different ways while the woman takes her own steps.
He practices moving his center in a steady fashion, while varying his footwork. She concentrates on ignoring what he is doing with his feet, while responding to the lead from his center.

The earliest example of this in my lessons was when we were taught how to go into "crossed system" by taking an extra step. The man does this smoothly so that the woman either doesn't feel it, or knows she is supposed to ignore it.

All of this was consistent over a number of teachers here in Portland, and numerous visiting notables.

What have you all been taught in this regard?

Overall, to lead from the core, and not with the arms or feet...