Feeling the Man's Steps?

[Nathan]

I would suggest that the leader can then move his free foot without moving his upper body and expect the follower to mirror this, without looking at his foot. When the leader has placed his foot in the desired position he will then move his weight onto the foot and follower will do the same.

While I think it's beneficial for a follower to know where the leader's feet are, that's only because it lets her be aware of what the couple is doing as a whole and have a greater appreciation for the dance she's half responsible for producing. What you are talking about is... well, let's just say it's not the way people lead and follow in tango!

The lead for this movement (i.e. the follower sticking her free leg out) is a tiny impulse in the direction the leader wants her to place her foot, without him taking a step and doing a weight transfer. As soon as he's sent this impulse, he can then move his own free leg/foot however he chooses (in the same direction or any other). If executed properly, this creates the illusion of simultaneity. This is the same fundamental technique used in walking, just broken down into its constituent parts.

It seems to me that your method requires the follower to look at the leaders chest or be behind the leader or be pushed by the leader and whatever the case, cause the follower to snatch her step.

Everything is felt through your partner's body. As a leader, I feel my partner's feet through her body, just as she feels the lead through mine. Good dancing has nothing at all to do with sight and little to do with pushing: it's about signal transduction, plain and simple.

I would also suggest that you have not answered how the leader can end up in an offset position to the follower.

For instance: he creates a larger impulse so that she places her foot farther (sinking down slightly makes this message even clearer). Then he takes a shorter step than the one he led her to take. That's one way... there are many others.

 

[Mario7]

Great question but as usual the replies go to the moon and back. Steve is looking for the Milonguero secret of 'shooting the feet'..throwing the shoes to the floor rather than weakly walking them....another name for this is 'walking on cobblestones' , if you've ever had the luck to live in town with cobblestone streets , you will know what I'm talking about....you must shoot the feet straight down to where the stone is, otherwise you will slip off the edge of the stone and turn the ankle.... oK.. great examples of this are most dances of Jorge Firpo and Ruben Haryenblot (sp?)
Of course, for The great example of this technique one must go to the greatest milongueros like Ricardo Vidort. ...good luck in seeing and mastering this..it will add a special touch or should I say 'kick' to your dance and clue-in the woman so that she follows with perfect feeling.

 

[dchester]

Great question but as usual the replies go to the moon and back. Steve is looking for the Milonguero secret of 'shooting the feet'..throwing the shoes to the floor rather than weakly walking them....another name for this is 'walking on cobblestones' , if you've ever had the luck to live in town with cobblestone streets , you will know what I'm talking about....you must shoot the feet straight down to where the stone is, otherwise you will slip off the edge of the stone and turn the ankle.... oK.. great examples of this are most dances of Jorge Firpo and Ruben Haryenblot (sp?)
Of course, for The great example of this technique one must go to the greatest milongueros like Ricardo Vidort. ...good luck in seeing and mastering this..it will add a special touch or should I say 'kick' to your dance and clue-in the woman so that she follows with perfect feeling.

Thanks for the clarification. I somehow thought he was asking about whether people had been taught to lead from the body like he had, or whether the feet were used to lead.


Steve, sorry for being confused by your question, and on going to the moon and back.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Pow, Alice! To the moon.

 

[opendoor]

....another name for this is 'walking on cobblestones' ....you must shoot the feet straight down to where the stone is, otherwise you will slip off the edge of the stone and...

Hi Mario, I read that the old-time embellishment called Elevada (sudden yanking of the free foot) can be traced back to shaky grounds, as well.

 

[Subliminal]

Thanks for the clarification. I somehow thought he was asking about whether people had been taught to lead from the body like he had, or whether the feet were used to lead.


Steve, sorry for being confused by your question, and on going to the moon and back.

Oh snap. Someone call the hopital and tell them we need the BURN ward.

 

[Nathan]

Steve is looking for the Milonguero secret of 'shooting the feet'..

I don't know about him, but I shoot myself in the foot all the time.

 

[Peaches]

This is consistent with my idea of how it works, assuming you are not talking about OE.

Why not if talking about open embrace? Nothing changes with OE--the lead still comes from the man's center, and it's what we feel and respond to. Same as in close embrace.

 

[Peaches]

Don't agree, and I've never hit a leader yet with an embellishment. A follower's embellishments typically don't extend in front of her. She's usually in more danger of kicking someone else on the floor around them than her own leader. If a follower is injuring her partner with her embellishments (or anyone else for that matter) then there's a bigger problem than her not knowing where the leader's feet are!

Agree. Although there are times when the leader's foot could potentially be in the way--I'm thinking specifically of an embellishment before a step-over (or whatever you want to call it). But in those cases, if she has good technique, she's collected her feet together and made contact with his "problem foot," so she knows where it is and can avoid it.

 

[Peaches]

So in my opinion a lead is not only about the intention through the chest, there are other aspects as well. In this instance the OP appears to suggest excluding the leaders feet, although this was not defined.


If this means the quality of the leaders foot connection to the floor then IMO it should not be ignored. If it was meant that both leaders and followers should not be looking at each others feet then I do agree.

How you, as a leader, create what I feel, as a follower, is something I neither really know about or care about. I respond to the lead that I feel through the man's chest/center. That's all. If that comes from something he's doing differently with his feet, if "there are other aspects as well" to that lead through the center, if it's a matter of "the quality of the leaders foot connection to the floor"...I don't know, and don't particularly care.

Your job is to create an effective lead. My job is to follow and interpret. How you do what you do is none of my concern. (And I can't even begin to comment on that, because I know nothing of how to lead.)

 

[Peaches]

So you are saying that you will not move your foot until the leader moves his body, even though the leader may already have moved and positioned his foot ready to transfer his weight.

Where the leader gives an intention with his first foot placement to indicate that is where he wants you to place his foot and once this message has been established moves his body to an offset position you will still follow his body?

You have brought up three entirely different concepts, and I'm not sure that you're separating them out in terms of how they affect the follower.

1)The leader moving his foot.--Who cares. He can flail his damn free leg about all he wants. He can position it so it's ready to transfer his weight. It.does.not.matter what he does with his free foot. Because...

2)The leader moving his body.--Ding ding ding! This is what we're feeling. That is when we step. When he moves his body (and, presumably, asks us to go with him) THAT is when we take a step.

3)Giving his intention.--By feeling his intention he can move the follower's free leg. It is what tells us where and how to place our feet, in conjunction with moving his body (transferring weight).

So. Our free leg moves with his intention. We follow the lead that comes from his center. This is how you can end up offset--he moves us one direction while going in the opposite direction himself. (What's that you say? We're not following his body? It's coming from his arms? No...not really it isn't. Every good lead still comes from the man's center, regardless of if it's transmitted through his arms or if we're in CE. It.doesn't.matter. Even if we're working in oppositon, that lead still comes from his center.)

 

[JohnEm]

So. Our free leg moves with his intention. We follow the lead that comes from his center. This is how you can end up offset--he moves us one direction while going in the opposite direction himself. (What's that you say? We're not following his body? It's coming from his arms? No...not really it isn't. Every good lead still comes from the man's center, regardless of if it's transmitted through his arms or if we're in CE. It.doesn't.matter. Even if we're working in oppositon, that lead still comes from his center.)

You do talk some rubbish.

Tango might have a sprinkling of fairy dust in your eyes but it isn't
that magical that it defies the physics of the bodies and the connection.

I'm not going to cross swords with you any more again today
if I can avoid it but have a look at the Chicho video you like so
much. What's that? He leads with his arms! Yes, quite a lot.

Oh, and by the way, as a leader I wouldn't lead you to any sort
of offset position within the embrace in the way you describe.

 

[newbie]

Yep, his moving in another direction and leading with his center are not possible at the same time. One of my teachers explains that to reach an offset position the leader initiates the movement with his body/center/whatever-just-not-the-arms, which initiates the follower's movement in the given direction. Then at some point the leader moves in another direction while his hands keep accompanying the follower to the original direction.

 

[dchester]

You do talk some rubbish.

Have you taken a look at some of your posts???

I'm not going to cross swords with you any more again today if I can avoid it but have a look at the Chicho video you like so
much. What's that? He leads with his arms! Yes, quite a lot.

I think someone doesn't understand the difference between a performance, and social dancing.

 

[opendoor]

Re: center

..Every good lead still comes from the man's center, regardless of if it's transmitted through his arms or if we're in CE. It.doesn't.matter. Even if we're working in oppositon, that lead still comes from his center.)

Speaking frankly, I fear the concept of the center often simply is kind of a smoke grenade to avoid a clear explanation of the lead in detail. And I think I am quite familiar with this concept back then since my TaiJi Chuan days.

José „El Turco“ Brahemcha (one founding father of VU style) once said: You lead with your whole body, head, or arms, or butt, what actually fits best.