Feeling the Man's Steps?

[dchester]

Yep, his moving in another direction and leading with his center are not possible at the same time. One of my teachers explains that to reach an offset position the leader initiates the movement with his body/center/whatever-just-not-the-arms, which initiates the follower's movement in the given direction. Then at some point the leader moves in another direction while his hands keep accompanying the follower to the original direction.

What kind of move are you talking about, and how does this relate to the discussion? I can lead a volcada with my center, which will take the follower off axis, and her foot movements are led by my body (not my feet or my arms).

BTW, I've heard "offset" used a couple different ways, so I'm not sure if my example relates to what you are talking about.

 

[JohnEm]

Have you taken a look at some of your posts???

At least I'm prepared to give an opinion, right or wrong,
rather than just sit on the fence and prevaricate.

I think someone doesn't understand the difference between
a performance, and social dancing.

Oh I think I do. And Chicho's is quite a performance,
but not one I admire except for the clever word play
which even more clearly is choreographed.

One point worth making is that as a choreographed performance
you might expect him to use his arms less rather than more
as she probably knows what's coming next.

Has your post actually actually added anything?

 

[dchester]

Has your post actually actually added anything?

Nothing is more than a negative.

Maybe you think calling someone's post rubbish is adding something. I don't.

 

[JohnEm]

Nothing is more than a negative.

Nothing is an absence of anything.

Maybe you think calling someone's post rubbish is adding something. I don't.

Why not reread my post, and this time read on.
It was one paragraph out of Peaches post I quoted and criticised.

Oh yes, you dismissed my observation about Chicho too.
You can do that, just don't pretend that my comment wasn't qualified.

And why not leap in the next time Peaches uses language much stronger,
ruder and more dismissive than anything I've ever used?

 

[opendoor]

Re: Nothing is an absence of anything

What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence

 

[newbie]

José „El Turco“ Brahemcha (one founding father of VU style) once said: You lead with your whole body, head, or arms, or butt, what actually fits best.

There is no such thing as VU style. And about leading with everything, Tete said that too. And with the belly as well, he added.

 

[dchester]

What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence

Touche.


Another of his quotes, "Language is a part of our organism and no less complicated than it."

 

[newbie]

What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence

"A philosopher who is not taking part in discussions is like a boxer who never goes into the ring. "

Better suited for this forum.

 

[JohnEm]

There is no such thing as VU style.

Unfortunately there is now!

And about leading with everything, Tete said that too. And with the belly as well, he added.

Interesting you should say that. I was once taught to lead the
little back crosses (what some people call milonguero ochos)
with the stomach and it totally put me off the teachers.

Using the stomach gets around the problem of your partner having
no body tone or "core" but as I don't have a "Tete Tummy" I don't
find it pleasant and nor do those regular partners who have enough
tone and sensitivity to feel the lead from the chest.

Each to their own as usual (or YMMV for across the pond).

 

[chanchan]

You have brought up three entirely different concepts, and I'm not sure that you're separating them out in terms of how they affect the follower.

1)The leader moving his foot.--Who cares. He can flail his damn free leg about all he wants. He can position it so it's ready to transfer his weight. It.does.not.matter what he does with his free foot. Because...

2)The leader moving his body.--Ding ding ding! This is what we're feeling. That is when we step. When he moves his body (and, presumably, asks us to go with him) THAT is when we take a step.

3)Giving his intention.--By feeling his intention he can move the follower's free leg. It is what tells us where and how to place our feet, in conjunction with moving his body (transferring weight).

So. Our free leg moves with his intention. We follow the lead that comes from his center. This is how you can end up offset--he moves us one direction while going in the opposite direction himself. (What's that you say? We're not following his body? It's coming from his arms? No...not really it isn't. Every good lead still comes from the man's center, regardless of if it's transmitted through his arms or if we're in CE. It.doesn't.matter. Even if we're working in oppositon, that lead still comes from his center.)

I must say that this time I totally agree with you. The three points that you mentioned are exactly what I expect from a follower.
The lead comes always from the center, even when the dancers appear to work in opposition, beacuse it is not a real opposition: it is actually a rotation.

 

[opendoor]

A philosopher who is not taking part in discussions is like a boxer who never goes into the ring.

Have you ever met a philosopher who really took part in a discussion? (Don´t mix up discussion with discours) - And have you ever met a boxer who never went into the ring?

There is no such thing as VU style.

That doesn´t insult me. I actually took some privates with Chiche Nuñez but I´m not really into it.

 

[Mario7]

Hi Mario, I read that the old-time embellishment called Elevada (sudden yanking of the free foot) can be traced back to shaky grounds, as well.

Yes that's it, as i see it in talking about the man's lead, the Milonguero old guard seem to lift the free leg by jerking it upwards.... then when they shoot it down, the woman has no doubt what, where and when the action occurs... Ricardo Vidort..and Ruben Har.....sp? can be seen doing this..it accents the music, too.:friend:

 

[ant]

1)The leader moving his foot.--Who cares. .)

As a follower you might.

He can flail his damn free leg about all he wants.

Only you are talking about flailing legs

He can position it so it's ready to transfer his weight.

Agreed

It.does.not.matter what he does with his free foot. Because...

Not always but sometimes I think it does

2)The leader moving his body.

Sometimes this is a good lead for the follower to affect a weight transfer but just as often not.

--Ding ding ding!

Whatever rings your bell

This is what we're feeling

I assume you are talking about his body and if this is so I agree.

When he moves his body

I agree that is normally a signal for a follower to follow but not always

(and, presumably, asks us to go with him)

Sometimes but quite often not the case

THAT is when we take a step.

If you feel that is the intention yes but your step/or not taking a step is often led without reference to the leader taking/or not taking a the step.

3)Giving his intention.--By feeling his intention he can move the follower's free leg.

Agreed if that is how the follower reads it.

It is what tells us where and how to place our feet, in conjunction with moving his body (transferring weight).

Sometimes. I would suggest to you that a follower often effects a weight transfer without the leader doing a weight transfer and vice verse.

So. Our free leg moves with his intention.

It quite often does.

We follow the lead that comes from his center.

Generally yes

This is how you can end up offset--he moves us one direction while going in the opposite direction himself.

It suppsoe it can be done that way but that is not what I had in mind.

(What's that you say? We're not following his body? It's coming from his arms?

Where did I mention arms.

What I am saying is that I place my foot the follower feels where my foot is placed once I feel that she has accepted that as a lead I will move my foot further along and we end up offset. Hence as a follower you are conscious of where my original foot placement was and following in relation to that position

No...not really it isn't. Every good lead still comes from the man's center,

As I have said not always the case. For instance if I feel that the follower I am dancing with follows my read of the music that is suffient. If the follower is reading my intention from my connection with the floor that is suffient. If I then have to use body leads I will. If I need a stronger frame to lead I will. In other words I believe in leading using the least invasive method that the follower can read.

regardless of if it's transmitted through his arms or if we're in CE.

I have looked through this thread and I cannot see that I have made one reference to using the arms. Beyiond saying, in fact the whole point of my posts has been the very opposite, it is probably best that I do not expand on this point you have raised about the arms further.

It.doesn't.matter. Even if we're working in oppositon, that lead still comes from his center

As I have said not always and not preferably. I would rather we read read the music together or you felt my connection to the floor. This is by far the most pleasurable way of dancing if I have a good connection with the follower through the music and floor and we are just walking with the music.

 

[Peaches]

Ok, so we disagree. We'll just have to agree on that point, if nothing else.

I have made my point the best I am able. I have nothing more to add.

(Aside: God almighty, I've come to hate this bloody forum. Why did I come back and try to get involved? Good lord. Enough of this.)

 

[bordertangoman]

As I have said not always the case. For instance if I feel that the follower I am dancing with follows my read of the music that is suffient. If the follower is reading my intention from my connection with the floor that is suffient. If I then have to use body leads I will. If I need a stronger frame to lead I will. In other words I believe in leading using the least invasive method that the follower can read.
.

I myself follow the Salvador Dali school of leading* where he advocates that simultaneous orgasm can be acheived by two lovers fully clothed, at a distance, merely by looking into each others eyes; cabaceo, schmabaceo! by the time the follower has met me on the floor she knows exactly what I'm going to do for the next 2 minutes and forty seconds...


:tongue:



*from his book Hidden Lives