Feeling the Man's Steps?

[pygmalion]

(Aside: God almighty, I've come to hate this bloody forum. Why did I come back and try to get involved? Good lord. Enough of this.)

I am intrigued by this (but not intrigued enough to go back and read a couple pages lol)

Hang in there P. I've seen you contribute so much valuable insight and support to others in the AT forum.

Hang in there.

AT is one of those disciplines. People are passionate about what they believe. Eh. It makes for interesting conversations, where interesting = sometimes annoying.

Walk away and come back when you're ready.

Meanwhile, please go over to the recipes thread and teach me how to make pancakes. :lol:

 

[bordertangoman]

Ok, so we disagree. We'll just have to agree on that point, if nothing else.

I have made my point the best I am able. I have nothing more to add.

(Aside: God almighty, I've come to hate this bloody forum. Why did I come back and try to get involved? Good lord. Enough of this.)

"Lets sing another song boys this one has grown old and bitter."

 

[ant]

While I think it's beneficial for a follower to know where the leader's feet are, that's only because it lets her be aware of what the couple is doing as a whole and have a greater appreciation for the dance she's half responsible for producing. What you are talking about is...

it sounds very much like two people dancing together in a very pleasurable way.

well, let's just say it's not the way people lead and follow in tango!

This seems to be a contradiction to what you said above.

The lead for this movement (i.e. the follower sticking her free leg out) is a tiny impulse in the direction the leader wants her to place her foot, without him taking a step and doing a weight transfer.

With regard to the impulse you are referring to, where is this impluse coming from and what form does it take?

As soon as he's sent this impulse, he can then move his own free leg/foot however he chooses (in the same direction or any other).
If executed properly, this creates the illusion of simultaneity.

I need to know your answer above before I can comment on this.

This is the same fundamental technique used in walking, just broken down into its constituent parts.

I am not sure about this. I beleive that directionality can be conveyed in the relationship of the leaders weight and where in his foot this goes. Whereas in walking the direction is already set and as a leader I have different priorities in what I want to convey.

Everything is felt through your partner's body. As a leader, I feel my partner's feet through her body, just as she feels the lead through mine.

This is a truism but it is not neccessarily giving an accurate picture of everything that is being felt. For instance the music and the lack of foot movement in the leaders body and do you include the connection with the floor of the free leg in this.

Good dancing has nothing at all to do with sight and little to do with pushing: it's about signal transduction, plain and simple.

I never mentioned sight. You will need to elaborate further what you mean by pushing. I would suggest your connection in the floor often manifests as a push from it and the quality of that push conveys a number of different things which I would categorise as signal transduction (I am assuming this means inducing meaning from the non verbal and non visual messaging passing between dance partners. Are you suggesting signal transduction only comes through the chest? If so I believe this is rather limiting

For instance: he creates a larger impulse so that she places her foot farther (sinking down slightly makes this message even clearer). Then he takes a shorter step than the one he led her to take. That's one way... there are many others

But what is the signal that the follower is inducing from. The push from the floor, a movement from the chest or the horizontal movement of the leader. I would suggest that all three come into play but the more you can use the first and the less you use the second and even more the third as a method of leading the better in my opinion. But even better still just allow the music to move you both.

 

[ant]

simultaneous orgasm can be acheived by two lovers fully clothed, at a distance, merely by looking into each others eyes;

If I could achieve this as well as you........

 

[Zoopsia59]

made contact with his "problem foot," so she knows where it is and can avoid it.

And of course, it is the leader's responsibility to place his "problem foot" so that all that occurs naturally as she executes her steps. I've had leaders place the foot for a Parada either in a bad place or (more likely) at the wrong time so that I trip over it rather than have it stop me. If the follower is having to find his foot to make the contact in a Parada, then something is wrong. I think he is supposed to find her's.

 

[ant]

I've had leaders place the foot for a Parada either in a bad place or (more likely) at the wrong time so that I trip over it rather than have it stop me. If the follower is having to find his foot to make the contact in a Parada, then something is wrong. I think he is supposed to find her's.

Agreed

 

[Mario7]

..can't we all just be sweeeeeeeeeet? or is this behaviour only appropriate for Mexicanos?....and Facebook.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=734224171

 

[opendoor]

A philosopher who is not taking part in discussions is like a boxer who..

Don´t mix discussion with discours

In this respect we´ve only got one

cabaceo, schmabaceo!

 

[Zoopsia59]

Yep, his moving in another direction and leading with his center are not possible at the same time. One of my teachers explains that to reach an offset position the leader initiates the movement with his body/center/whatever-just-not-the-arms, which initiates the follower's movement in the given direction. Then at some point the leader moves in another direction while his hands keep accompanying the follower to the original direction.

Yes, this is how I think of it as well.

You are describing several things that happen in sequence, not a single move (as clearly you know by the way you described it)

The leader DOES indicate with a body lead the direction he wants the follower to go. AFTER she starts heading in that direction, he changes his own direction thus achieving a result of the two of them going opposite of each other (and to an observer, it probably looks simultaneous). But it is not simultaneous. It is (as you describe) TWO separate movements by the leader... one is the lead for her, the other is his own movement.

The follower's job is to stay with him unless he prevents it. In the case I think you are describing, he has effectively prevented her from staying with him through the timing of his switch. It comes too late for her to reverse her intention/ momentum. If timing isn't enough on it's own (and it often isn't except with advanced leaders) he will probably use his arms, not to lead the move per se (because she is already moving as he wishes) but to continue her moving that way by preventing her from changing. And, as you say, allowing his arms to continue with her in the direction he already indicated for her.

This type of move works best, and is most comfortable for the follower, when she gets the clear lead from his body first. Too often the leader skips that part and uses only his arms to push her one way while he sends himself the other way. That's not so great.

So while someone can explain the correct method as "leading with his arms", I personally would make a distinction between using his arms to prevent or follow her movement (that he has already indicated) vs using his arms to initialize or propel her movement.

Obviously, there are times when this first type of use of the arms is required. (I'm thinking especially of those back sacadas where the guy rotates and turns his back to the follower to reach behind him for a sacada coming to her front. If she weren't prevented from following his chest, she wouldn't be in the right place.)

IMO, it is best to bring up these uses of the arms specifically in context rather than ever speak of leading with the arms. Far too often, beginners and even intermediate leaders (and leaders who have been doing tango for years but who still make fundamental mistakes) overuse their arms and try to lead or steer with the arms when it isn't necessary. For that reason, I usually say general things like "you don't need your arms to lead" or "You shouldn't lead with your arms". MOST of the time, it's true. The exceptions are rather specific instances, not general practice.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I would rather we read read the music together or you felt my connection to the floor. This is by far the most pleasurable way of dancing if I have a good connection with the follower through the music and floor and we are just walking with the music.

I'm not at all clear on how the follower knows where to go this way? Are you saying that you and she both hear (for instance) a molinete (or some other move) in the music, so she does that without you specifically leading it?

I'm also wondering how much following you've done yourself? You have very strong opinions on how followers should be thinking about the relationship to the leader, but most of the followers who have responded on this thread do not agree with what you are saying. Are these conclusions you've come to through your own experience of following? (forgive me if you are primarily a follower... I sometimes get posters mixed up) Or are you trying to apply how you as a leader relate to your role and technique to the follower's viewpoint of the leader?

 

[dchester]

Yes that's it, as i see it in talking about the man's lead, the Milonguero old guard seem to lift the free leg by jerking it upwards.... then when they shoot it down, the woman has no doubt what, where and when the action occurs... Ricardo Vidort..and Ruben Har.....sp? can be seen doing this..it accents the music, too.:friend:

The accenting the music stuff, I get. I'm less clear on how it's helpful with respect to the lead. By the time his foot hits the ground, it's too late to be a useful lead. Possibly the initial movement of him stepping down could convey some information, but I only (on rare occasion) use this for accenting a beat, (and have wondered if it goofs up my lead, or hurts the comfort of the follower).

 

[JohnEm]

The accenting the music stuff, I get. I'm less clear on how it's helpful with respect to the lead. By the time his foot hits the ground, it's too late to be a useful lead. Possibly the initial movement of him stepping down could convey some information, but I only (on rare occasion) use this for accenting a beat, (and have wondered if it goofs up my lead, or hurts the comfort of the follower).

If you change the way you walk, whatever the change,and you're connected
at the chest your partner will feel the change even before your foot hits
the ground. Even though I'm unclear exactly what Mario is referring to,
your partner will feel the preparation, the lift and the strike even though
she won't know exactly what it going on. So she will feel the change in
emphasis and hopefully join you in that change if you provide that intention.
That is usually the point of it as a response to the music.

 

[dchester]

Speaking frankly, I fear the concept of the center often simply is kind of a smoke grenade to avoid a clear explanation of the lead in detail. And I think I am quite familiar with this concept back then since my TaiJi Chuan days.

José „El Turco“ Brahemcha (one founding father of VU style) once said: You lead with your whole body, head, or arms, or butt, what actually fits best.

I think you have a point (as I don't subscribe to the view that the arms can't be used), but some of the other posts seemed to say that leading the followers free foot requires the leader doing things with his foot or arms. If they are simply saying that's their preference, then of course the point can't be argued. Now since I suspect I don't fully understand ant's point (or what type of move he's talking about that requires this), maybe it's possible that he doesn't understand what I and some other are saying.

In any case, here's an example of a leader moving the follower's free foot without using his hands or feet to do it. Maybe others could provide video of what they are talking about when they seem to be saying it is needed. The example I'm referring to starts at around 2:22.

[yt]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8ceBusDuyj0&hl=en_US&fs=1&start=142&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8ceBusDuyj0&hl=en_US&fs=1&start=142&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/yt]


BTW, A note to the MODs: It looks like this site is not setup to allow embedding of youtube videos using the (newer) iframe tags (html code) that youtube provides now. I had to convert the html to the older object tags, to embed this video.

 

[Subliminal]

One kind of amusing thing that I've noticed since learning to follow is how it changes my perception of steps. As a leader, I am used to thinking in terms of instant reaction. I move this way, she moves this way. It seemed so obvious to me as a leader, she must know what's going on, she did it! Then I started learning to follow, and I realized which parts actually come across. For instance, I thought it was obvious to the follower when we switched to cross system. But then following, I discovered I wouldn't conciously register cross system untl we've already completed a couple ochos. :-D

What registers to me as a follower is "noise". Am I getting a clear direction? Is there something extra confusing the signal? As Daniel Trenner once told me in a class, as far as the followers are concerned, the leader has four responsibilities:

Go.
Stop.
Left.
Right.

The follower handles most of the work. The leader's primary responsibility is safety and navigation. This all starts from a clear signal. So how does a leader produce a clear signal? He reduces "noise". We've talked a lot about how the leader should step in this thread, but if we try to distill the comments, it really comes down to Stability. Noise is caused by extra muscle movements, above that which is needed to convey the lead. After a leader is able to reduce the noise they are producing through their body, then they can start deliberately adding it back in as a musical element. But it must be DELIBERATE.

 

[Subliminal]

Re: The follower's free foot.

I agree with newbie, to move in a different direction requires two movements. But... I will take it one step farther. Every step requires two movements. First, the leader directs the follower's free leg, then he follows her where she needs to go. If he chooses to follow her in a different direction, that is how you end offset.