"Figures of Argentine Tango" page

[Dave Bailey]

Well, yeah. But you're also committed if you take a step...unless you want to play with partial weight changes. It's the same thing.

You're only committed when you transfer weight. It's typically a much smaller "moment" than the commitment to a volcada. You can change your mind in a much smaller window, and much easier.

I think it's a matter of taste and the skill of the leader. Or perhaps local dancing scene. I don't see any difference in musicality between traditional and nuevo dancers around here. (Although, to be fair, there aren't a lot of nuevo guys). The traditional ones just shuffle around boringly (and there's a difference between simple and interesting versus boring shuffling), but they can stand on the "I'm keeping things simple" platform and no one bats an eye.

My impression is that people doing nuevo dancing are less inclined to be musical than those who do not. But to be fair, most people don't actually dance tango anyway, in any style.

LOL. As much as I love LZ, and I do, STH has never been a particular fave. And as much as I can hear tango in almost anything, STH doesn't lend itself to AT to my ear. Although I'd have been thrilled if someone around here would try something that fun and interesting.

Try the Vitamin String Quartet version.

 

[chanchan]

I guess what I meant was, once you've taken your partner off-axis, you have to bring her back on-axis first. You can't decide to just do any old move - you're committed.

You can decide to just do any "old" move... like a puente, a barrida, an out of axis calesita, a back or forward ocho milonguero, an apilado walk... there is only one exception: the only thing you can't do in this position is the pivot! Isn't it funny?

From a technical point of view, a volcada is nothing else then a forward out of axis: nothing different from apilado, just another name to call an old thing.

That doesn't mean improvisation is impossible in "nuevo", but it makes it harder. And I think it explains why a lot of (for want of a better word) "nuevo" movements are taught and practiced as sequences.

There is something true in this if you define "nuevo" as "open embrace": with the open embrace, leading and following is a little more difficult (and this is especially true for the volcada, which is usually done in a very close embrace). Using patterns is a good trick to give the illusion that you can dance, so it is an easy and widespread "solution" for this problem.

 

[sixela]

Using patterns is a good trick to give the illusion that you can dance, so it is an easy and widespread "solution" for this problem.

Bingo. If you dance in a close embrace and use simple steps, it's impossible to hide a lack of skills under a lot of smoke and mirrors. Doesn't mean that all dancers in an open embrace lack skills and connection with the partner.

 

[Zoopsia59]

half-way through doing a volcada, without falling over.

What is the 1/2 way point of a volcada? When you are leaning at the most off-axis point? You could always just stay there (or at any other point in the leaning) and dance in that lean for a few steps... would that be changing your mind 1/2 way through? (ie: not returning to upright as usual)

"nuevo" movements are taught and practiced as sequences.

Could you give an example of the sort of sequence you are thinking about?

Considering that just about every class teaches a "sequence", and many don't bother to explain ways to vary it, I'm confused about where you are drawing a distinction between what gets taught as potential for variations or breakdowns vs what is practical/ possible to vary or breakdown into components.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I guess what I meant was, once you've taken your partner off-axis, you have to bring her back on-axis first. You can't decide to just do any old move - you're committed.

No.. you don't.

As pointed out above, you can do variations on the volcada, and even take steps with her in that off axis position, although steps that lead her to step forward have the most potential to be confusing to her unless your lead is very good, and steps directly back may cause her to allow herself to come out of the lean for the step rather than maintaining her orientation to you as she changes weight (which means she'll figure it out as soon as you nearly run over her expecting her to still be off axis). Side steps have the least potential for confusion unless she is an auto-pivoter for any ochos.

I imagine all this would be tricky to lead but I've seen it and been lead this way once or twice successfully by a very good leader. Not sure how I knew to place my foot based on maintaining the lean rather than on where my free foot would be in the "dropped" position, but it worked.

Or maybe I screwed up and the leader just compensated.

 

[Subliminal]

I gotta wonder if some of the criticism against "nuevo" is really glass-half-empty rather than glass-half-full thinking. When I think of nuevo teachers, I don't think of the terrible sequence-only teachers who've wandered through town. I think of the few excellent teachers I've taken classes from who really opened up my mind to exploring new movements. For example, in a "barrida laboratory" I went to a while back with Rebecca Shulman, she opened the class by explaining/showing what a barrida was, then the rest of the class was us re-inventing every possible place we could perform a barrida (with some guidance from her). And when someone found a great combination, we'd all practice it. And when we were stumped on what to do next, Rebecca would open up another possibility by showing us another way of moving or looking at things.

This teaching method seems to be more like the original intent of the nuevo three.

 

[Zoopsia59]

the only thing you can't do in this position is the pivot! Isn't it funny?

Well, the leader can use the follower's standing foot as the pivot point and walk around her maintaining the lean, but maybe that's not what you mean by "pivot".

 

[chanchan]

Well, the leader can use the follower's standing foot as the pivot point and walk around her maintaining the lean, but maybe that's not what you mean by "pivot".

Yes, I call it "out of axis calesita".
By "pivot" I mean a rotational movement of the whole body around one's own vertical axis.

 

[opendoor]

The more general term is planeo for the woman. The planeo can be done without and with forward lean, with bended knees, or even colgadized. The calesita is kind of a planeo in the carpa-position (extrem lean). Either of them is a rather passiv turn for the woman. Whereas a pivot is something activly done. I would not call a figure or sequence a pivot, because pivoting is one of the fundamental stepping techniques like crossing (Naveira meaning) forward, backward stepping and so on.

the planeo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWTvjsMjlm4

the rulo http://www.marseilletango.fr/Video Tango Rulo.htm

the carpa http://www.marseilletango.fr/Video Tango Carpa.htm

the calesita http://www.marseilletango.fr/Video Tango Calesita.htm

 

[bordertangoman]

The more general term is planeo for the woman. The planeo can be done without and with forward lean, with bended knees, or even colgadized. The calesita is kind of a planeo in the carpa-position (extrem lean). Either of them is a rather passiv turn for the woman. Whereas a pivot is something activly done. I would not call a figure or sequence a pivot, because pivoting is one of the fundamental stepping techniques like crossing (Naveira meaning) forward, backward stepping and so on.

the planeo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWTvjsMjlm4

the rulo http://www.marseilletango.fr/Video Tango Rulo.htm

the carpa http://www.marseilletango.fr/Video Tango Carpa.htm

the calesita http://www.marseilletango.fr/Video Tango Calesita.htm

aha the carpa is the "Back breaker"

 

[sixela]

The more general term is planeo for the woman.

That's not the way I've seen the term used. A planeo is when the woman brushes with the free foot over the floor (often while you have one of these in-place turns). It's the adorno the woman does, not the turn itself, or it is the turn but only if coupled with this particular adorno (which does not necessarily accompany the turn. [Of course, there are leader planeos as well, in which the man will turn with feet scribing a planeo instead of collecting or doing an enrosque].

the planeo [link removed]

Note the free foot of the lady...that's what maks it a planeo rather than "just" an on-axis pivot [see below].

As for the pivot, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on using your definition (for which I am also unable to find an attested source). For me, a pivot can be active or passive, and English supports "pivot" both as a transitive and intransitive verb. When you open the door, you pivot the door around its hinges, but the door pivots .

 

[sixela]

My impression is that people doing nuevo dancing are less inclined to be musical than those who do not.

I save a bookmark for all people who claim nuevo is always danced in open embrace and not musical (you'll have to add the YouTube header yourself, given I'm still a lower life form around these parts):

watch?v=_eq-VPlSIiY&feature=player_embedded

I'm not too fond of the most extreme abrazo breaking (but hey, it is a performance, so I have to cut them a lot of slack), but 90% of it can be danced small and in a closed embrace.

 

[dchester]

The more general term is planeo for the woman. The planeo can be done without and with forward lean, with bended knees, or even colgadized. The calesita is kind of a planeo in the carpa-position (extrem lean). Either of them is a rather passiv turn for the woman. Whereas a pivot is something activly done. I would not call a figure or sequence a pivot, because pivoting is one of the fundamental stepping techniques like crossing (Naveira meaning) forward, backward stepping and so on.

the planeo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWTvjsMjlm4

the rulo http://www.marseilletango.fr/Video%20Tango%20Rulo.htm

the carpa http://www.marseilletango.fr/Video Tango Carpa.htm

the calesita http://www.marseilletango.fr/Video Tango Calesita.htm

I disagree with your definition of a calesita. While followers will often do a planeo during a calesita, there is absolutely no requirement that she do a planeo, as she could stay collected during the calesita, if she chooses to.

The calesita is simply the leader stepping around the follower, while the follower pivots, (sort of the inverse of the mollinette, when the follower steps around the leader while he pivots).

 

[sixela]

Followers don't always step around the leader in a molinete - both dancers can also turn around an axis in the middle (although some people call the former molinete/media luna and the latter giro).

 

[dchester]

Followers don't always step around the leader in a molinete - both dancers can also turn around an axis in the middle (although some people call the former molinete/media luna and the latter giro).

Yes, although some call that a double giro (when both are stepping).