Followers' proficiency
- Thread starter New in NY
- Start date
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Interestingly, I just today wrote an article about that, using the same metaphor...Nah... we just fake it better, since we already have experience at that.
Not that anyone asked me, but I thought I'd get some spirited debate going.Failure to Lead said:
:twisted:
If the follower knows what he is trying to lead, didn't he (in some way) communicate the step, or lead it? Granted, it may not have been lead well. But if she understood it, shouldn't she just do the step, unless there is a safety issue (pain, collision, etc.), or something like that?
That depends on HOW she knows what he was trying to lead...
If you are social dancing and he struggles a little in general, that's one thing... sure... help him out. You can't exactly not follow ANYTHING because the leader hasn't perfected his overall leading ability. Consider the level he's at and cut him a little slack...
BTW - guys in that situation seem to know they are struggling and are aware they need to improve, and yet they often also appreciate it when you DON"T just follow anything no matter how badly they led it because they can't judge where they are going wrong... I've actually had leaders THANK me for refusing to follow something if it was led wrong (because then they can really feel where I am vs where they wanted me) and when I'm trying to lead, I tell the followers not to do anything if I didn't lead it right. I think it helps a leader more to simply either do what his lead felt like (even when you know its NOT what he meant) or do nothing at all, than it is to do what you know he wanted if you have to do it awkwardly. He doesn't learn much from a follower being as awkward in her movement as he is in his.
But I think the situations where followers resent having to follow anyway are where the guy doesn't know he's struggling.. For instance:
Was it because she's had him badly lead that step that same way before so she's learned his pattern? In that case, going along will simply reinforce his bad way of leading because it works for him.
Was it because he is making a common mistake? I guess she can go along with it hoping eventually his teacher will sort it out, but if he's getting results on the dance floor, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for him to accept his teacher's correction on something that he doesn't "need" to fix. He'll more likely concentrate his efforts on things that he's not getting away with or that are new and exciting.
Is it because its obvious what he expects even though he hasn't led anything (such as positioning her, then sticking his leg somewhere, and then doing nothing at all while waiting for her to gancho that leg even though he hasn't led a gancho AT ALL)
See previous statement about common mistakes.
Was it because he tells her? I think we all know what she should do about THAT!
What happens is that a leader consistently makes certain specific mistakes and we followers get tired of accomodating them when he never improves on it over time. In that case, I'd suspect that having the followers going along with it is a big part of why he never improves it. So you're not really doing him a favor by just doing the step.
So I guess it comes down to weighing the short and long term benefits to both partners...
Will it impede his learning by convincing him that he's right and if an occasional follower doesn't do it, SHE'S wrong?
Or will it make it easier for him to get over the early fears of getting out dancing and motivate him to improve?
Will executing the move anyway require her to sacrifice some of HER proper technique because the position is all wrong? Or can she do it easily, knowing he'll recognize that she's helping him out and appreciate that?
Who benefits? Who loses? Now? Later?
Angel HI
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by New in NY 
I find it easier to follow in ballroom/Latin (even if I am being led steps I do not know) than in AT, although I spend more time with AT.
I find it easier to follow in ballroom/Latin (even if I am being led steps I do not know) than in AT, although I spend more time with AT.
I'm surorised that no one has mentioned that BR/Latin, etc are mostly (unfortunately) pattern based, and, to some degree, a follow will know the pattern or usual move (ex: how many times have you been turned out from a basic, say cha, and not danced crossover?). AT simply isn't the same.
Dave Bailey
Active Member
You can communicate something without leading it.
The obvious example is when a leader says the old classic "You're supposed to [insert step here]...". That's communication, but it's not leading. If you have to tell the follower what she's "supposed to" do, you've failed to lead properly.
newbie
Well-Known Member
My first partner needed two days. Then she stopped taking classes and just kept going to milongas, dancing with any leader ranging from nearly-advanced to pro.
That's pretty amazing. Was she perhaps already an advanced follower in other forms of dance?
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Oh, and:
In fact, I like this whole post - can I re-write the article and use it / quote from it?
Yes, that's the way I see it also.
I agree again.
In fact, I like this whole post - can I re-write the article and use it / quote from it?
Dave Bailey
Active Member
I assumed that was covered by the "even if I am being led steps I do not know" bit of the post.Originally Posted by New in NY
I find it easier to follow in ballroom/Latin (even if I am being led steps I do not know) than in AT, although I spend more time with AT.
I'm surorised that no one has mentioned that BR/Latin, etc are mostly (unfortunately) pattern based, and, to some degree, a follow will know the pattern or usual move (ex: how many times have you been turned out from a basic, say cha, and not danced crossover?). AT simply isn't the same.
Mario7
Member
That's scarey..:-? ...but honest.Nah... we just fake it better, since we already have experience at that.
Originally Posted by New in NY
I find it easier to follow in ballroom/Latin (even if I am being led steps I do not know) than in AT, although I spend more time with AT.
I'm surorised that no one has mentioned that BR/Latin, etc are mostly (unfortunately) pattern based, and, to some degree, a follow will know the pattern or usual move (ex: how many times have you been turned out from a basic, say cha, and not danced crossover?). AT simply isn't the same.
I didn't want to make that assumption because it seems as ballroom gets more advanced, it become more lead/follow based? I expected to get flamed if I said "ballroom is about step patterns". I follow ballroom decently, but only took lessons to the intermediate'ish level and even that only in certain dances, so I really can't speak to what it's like for advanced dancers (and since I do it so seldom now, I don't recognize that one thing "typically" follows another)
However, in the beginning it seems to be very much about patterns and the patterns are fairly standardized in teaching everywhere. I think its the standardization that really makes it easier to dance with a variety of people early on.
newbie
Well-Known Member
She was advanced in be-bop.