Foot alignments and promenade

[MidwestDancingGuy]

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<Raises hand from back of classroom> Ooh! Ooh! Teacher, I have a question!

At 0:27, Emanuele and Tania go into a whisk and hold it there. But their back feet look like they're parallel to each other... :shock: I was taught that when doing a back whisk, that the correct promenade position is partially created by the partners' feet being essentially at a 45-degree angle to each other's, such that the track formed by the leader's and follower's feet form a "V". Or is this just what they teach to newbies like me? ... Or is this move not even considered a whisk?

 

[DanceMentor]

<Raises hand from back of classroom> Ooh! Ooh! Teacher, I have a question!

At 0:27, Emanuele and Tania go into a whisk and hold it there. But their back feet look like they're parallel to each other... :shock: I was taught that when doing a back whisk, that the correct promenade position is partially created by the partners' feet being essentially at a 45-degree angle to each other's, such that the track formed by the leader's and follower's feet form a "V". Or is this just what they teach to newbies like me? ... Or is this move not even considered a whisk?

I think we could have a good discussion about this. I love what they do here. We have tried it too. It takes a lot of balance and practice to dance the whisk so slowly.

What I found you definitely don't want to do is rise too much. You will knock each other off balance more easily.

As for the feet, there is also a rule that says point your foot in the direction you are travelling. If both both people pointed their foot at 45 degrees inward and then rolled through their foot, wouldn't they bump each other?
(I offer a question not an answer)

Now beginners will tend to open up into promenade too much and have a broken dance position, so I think this is probably part of where this idea of the 45 degrees comes from.

 

[MidwestDancingGuy]

As for the feet, there is also a rule that says point your foot in the direction you are travelling. If both both people pointed their foot at 45 degrees inward and then rolled through their foot, wouldn't they bump each other?
(I offer a question not an answer)

Yes, that's true! And yet, my instructor and I never seem to run into each other when she has me do a whisk and chasse, and I have my feet at 45-degrees.... I'm so confuzzled... :???:

 

[Warren J. Dew]

At 0:27, Emanuele and Tania go into a whisk and hold it there. But their back feet look like they're parallel to each other... :shock: I was taught that when doing a back whisk, that the correct promenade position is partially created by the partners' feet being essentially at a 45-degree angle to each other's, such that the track formed by the leader's and follower's feet form a "V". Or is this just what they teach to newbies like me? ... Or is this move not even considered a whisk?

It is a whisk. It looks to me like they are taking an angle, but less of an angle than in the "book" - perhaps 20 degrees to the line of travel rather than 45 degrees.

As for the feet, there is also a rule that says point your foot in the direction you are travelling. If both both people pointed their foot at 45 degrees inward and then rolled through their foot, wouldn't they bump each other?
(I offer a question not an answer)

One general rule is to lower into the toe and roll to the heel going backward, lower into the heel and roll to the toe going forward, and lower into the center of the foot in promenade, which allows you to roll at an angle to the inside or outside edge of the toe.

That said, I think a lot of advanced dancers use less than a 45 degree angle between their feet and the direction of travel in promenade.

 

[Mengu]

As for the feet, there is also a rule that says point your foot in the direction you are travelling. If both both people pointed their foot at 45 degrees inward and then rolled through their foot, wouldn't they bump each other?

More questions to add to the discussion then.

1. When you do a chasse (to the right, left, from PP, whatever), which direction are you travelling, and which direction are your feet pointed?

2. Is whisk characteristically a travelling step? or a picture line? or something else?

3. From a whisk position, would you use the same foot alignment stepping in PP if you are doing a wing, as you would for a chasse from PP?

Also the book says alignment is DW, but it never says 45 degrees. There is probably some leeway there.

Edit: This should probably branched to a different discussion.

 

[DanceMentor]

More questions to add to the discussion then.

1. When you do a chasse (to the right, left, from PP, whatever), which direction are you travelling, and which direction are your feet pointed?

2. Is whisk characteristically a travelling step? or a picture line? or something else?

3. From a whisk position, would you use the same foot alignment stepping in PP if you are doing a wing, as you would for a chasse from PP?

Also the book says alignment is DW, but it never says 45 degrees. There is probably some leeway there.

Edit: This should probably branched to a different discussion.

1. Depends on the follow. If followed by a Quick Open Reverse, then travelling DC, facing LOD.
2. I would call the basic whisk change of direction and dance position, and not thought of as a line figure. But then again you have things like fallaway whisk (travelling), left whisk (line figure). You'll sometimes see back whisks danced almost as a line figure.
3. I would expect yes, by I don't do wings much.

 

[Mengu]

1. Depends on the follow. If followed by a Quick Open Reverse, then travelling DC, facing LOD.
2. I would call the basic whisk change of direction and dance position, and not thought of as a line figure. But then again you have things like fallaway whisk (travelling), left whisk (line figure). You'll sometimes see back whisks danced almost as a line figure.
3. I would expect yes, by I don't do wings much.

1. In other words, feet don't *always* point in the direction of movement. We have lots of examples of this with chasses, side locks, left and right whisks, etc.

2. That's a good description for it.

3. I've been taught otherwise. For instance if your feet alignment for the whisk is DW, when you take the forward step for the wing, it would be right foot forward and across pointing to LoD.

Point I'm trying to get at is, feet pointing DW for the lead and DC for the follow doesn't mean collision is imminent. Right foot usually goes forward and across in CBMP, so the feet aren't traveling in the direction they are pointing.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

I just wanted to note that while the discussion from post 26 onwards was moved here from elsewhere, it's not actually about the hips in promenade, it's about the feet. The direction of the hips and the direction of the feet don't need to be the same.

 

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Point taken. The previous thread had mention of foot alignments but this really deserves its own thread.

 

[MidwestDancingGuy]

Thank you, oh great Lords of the Forum! :notworth::grin:

 

[DanceMentor]

1. In other words, feet don't *always* point in the direction of movement.

I don't always like to make hard and fast rules, as often you dance the best way you can with what you and your partner know, and there are always different ways at looking at things.

If you are dancing a side step, your foot is not pointing in the direction of movement. The interesting thing about promenade is there are so many variations on what you will do next. And what you will do next will have some bearing which way your foot points which could include forward in the direction you will be travelling next.

I know in the video they show a Weave from PP (or part of one) following a promenade which would have both man and woman travelling forward, not side, yes?

 

[govnu]

Yes, the Foot alignments are not same as ISTD definition

In accordance with 'Ballroom Dancing' by Mr Alex Moore 9th edition (1986), page 148 (diagram) and page 147 (description), the 2nd man step of Whisk in Waltz is side and SLIGHTLY forward. However, his step 2 is side and MUCH BACKward which is not same as ISTD defined. since man is leader, lady step will, of course, follow his alignment.

Nevertheless, it is a dance show, not a medal examination, they have more flexibility.

 

[hereKittyKitty]

In accordance with 'Ballroom Dancing' by Mr Alex Moore 9th edition (1986), page 148 (diagram) and page 147 (description), the 2nd man step of Whisk in Waltz is side and SLIGHTLY forward. However, his step 2 is side and MUCH BACKward which is not same as ISTD defined. since man is leader, lady step will, of course, follow his alignment.

Nevertheless, it is a dance show, not a medal examination, they have more flexibility.

if this were a medal examination, then it would be worth noting that step 2 for the lady in the back whisk is not the natural opposite.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

Point taken. The previous thread had mention of foot alignments but this really deserves its own thread.

Well, the hip alignment thread was certainly better than the original thread, though this new thread seems to have been found by more people. Mostly I was trying to make the technical point.

To expand on the technical point with respect to the original question, the whisk book alignment for the man - and for the lady by step 3 - is a "facing" alignment. This is generally taken to mean that the body and feet are roughly lined up in the same direction. However, the technique book provides only an outline of the technique, and so doesn't discuss nuances.

The whisk position - and promenades in general - are complex in this respect. 45 degrees to the line of advance is a pretty good position for the hips, but the rib cage should ideally remain facing towards partner to avoid breaking the shoulder line, while the feet may be pointing closer to the line of advance.

I think Valeri and Kehlet are each pretty close to the 45 degree hip position when they pause at the top of the whisk. The smaller angle in the feet is the result of turnout of the leading leg and turn in of the trailing leg, which can be desirable for dancers that move a lot in promenade, though it's not necessary for beginners. Tania at least also has her upper body and shoulders turned towards her partner, rather than aligned with her hips, which is good.

The bottom line is that they are using the same basic technique as the original poster, with some adjustments not covered in the basic technique book for their competition dancing.

 

[DanceMentor]

Tania does a sweet job of turning her left foot right as the left foot passes on the way to whisk position. I really like this couple, and enjoy watching both of them.

Interesting how she puts up her arms, and then he gets into position with her at the beginning.