For Leads: Do you watch how a follower dances before inviting her?

[Tango Distance]

Sometimes the dancers look good because they look good not because their dancing is actually that great. Someone who’s studied ballet for example will always look good even if they’re new to tango.

As I get more experience I appreciate this more. Some followers don't look flashy, but are amazing mind readers. I can interchange the quicks and slows, or make it all quicks or all slows, and they don't miss a beat. My aforementioned tanda my wife raved about looked really good to an outsider, but I felt like I was losing track of her position and not really leading much of the time.

Great dancers also get bored sitting round all night at a milonga. Even if a leader is very middling they’re more fun than a chair.

I would have given several likes for this if I could (short of creating a bunch of fake accounts). Thanks for the encouragement to mere mortal leaders! Sometimes our best dancers have a slow night, go figure.

 

[Tangogal]

As I get more experience I appreciate this more. Some followers don't look flashy, but are amazing mind readers. I can interchange the quicks and slows, or make it all quicks or all slows, and they don't miss a beat. My aforementioned tanda my wife raved about looked really good to an outsider, but I felt like I was losing track of her position and not really leading much of the time.

I would have given several likes for this if I could (short of creating a bunch of fake accounts). Thanks for the encouragement to mere mortal leaders! Sometimes our best dancers have a slow night, go figure.

I’m sure you’re more fun than a chair

I’m still surprised that so many experienced leaders in this forum think size is an impediment to dancing.

Followers rarely give size a second thought. Almost every leader is taller than me - there was a 10 year old boy at one milonga so I can’t say every leader. When the leader is much taller we just open the embrace a bit and I put my hand on their upper arm instead of the shoulder. My taller friends enjoy dancing with shorter leaders, again they simply open the embrace a bit or dance in a V.
I’ve had very enjoyable dances with slight leaders, athletic leaders, overweight leaders and obese leaders none of them was worse than the others.

Perhaps the problem lies in teaching that there’s only one way to dance or only one embrace?

 

[JournalInTime]

Some followers don't look flashy, but are amazing mind readers. I can interchange the quicks and slows, or make it all quicks or all slows, and they don't miss a beat. My aforementioned tanda my wife raved about looked really good to an outsider, but I felt like I was losing track of her position and not really leading much of the time.

Yes, however you feel about lead/follow (as you probably know by now, I'm not a fan of strict roles like that), how dancing with someone looks vs. how it feels is rarely the same.

Owing to how tango is taught – and especially to how tango dancers are socialized – the look/feel disparity is typically higher on the follower side, because there's this long, old, crusty tradition of it being part of the "job" of the leader to make the follower look good. If you respect the other long, old, crusty tradition of leaders doing all the inviting, you're challenged to find a good-feeling dance based on how a dancer looks from the outside. Worse, you're categorized by your final choice of partner: Dance with someone you find feels good to dance with but who has clunky-looking technique, and you'll be branded as "not very good"; dance with someone who always looks high-level but makes you feel as if you were run down by a car, and you'll be expected to make all followers look that good.

So, choosing partners based on what you see is a bit of a trap. That's a big part of why I'm not a conscious floor-watcher.

 

[JournalInTime]

I’m sure you’re more fun than a chair

It's a funny joke . . . yet at the same time, it hurts to be told that. Twice at least, I had a follower say, "Sure, why not? It's better than sitting." I realized that was boredom and frustration talking, but my brain could only hear it as, "Sure, why not dance with the likes of you? A bad tanda is better than sitting."

I’m still surprised that so many experienced leaders in this forum think size is an impediment to dancing.

In principle, I'm fairly neutral to size, yet . . .

I stand 178 cm tall, and have preferred partners who range from just over 150 cm tall to over 180 cm tall out of heels. However, if a follower wants a traditional lead/follow experience that puts floorcraft entirely on my head, taller is more challenging because it blocks more lines of sight, affecting navigation. That isn't in my mind; it's geometry. That's less of an issue for followers who are willing to take on 50% of the floorcraft, but I haven't noticed that taller followers are any less prone to closing their eyes or any more willing to use their superior height to spot trouble and warn me.

Likewise, I have preferred partners who range from twig-like to round, proportioned in all kinds of ways. Yet I haven't noticed that heavier followers are any less prone to hanging, which more troublesome at 85 kg than it is at 45 kg.

Followers rarely give size a second thought.

Perhaps they ought to, for the above reasons. If they're going to dance with shorter leaders, they need to adjust their attitude toward who's responsible for floorcraft. If they're going to dance with slighter or less muscular leaders, they need to adjust where and how they share their weight. Neither is 100% the leader's problem; at most, it's 50% the leader's problem.

Perhaps the problem lies in teaching that there’s only one way to dance or only one embrace?

I think so!

As my words above suggest, changes in technique are necessary to adapt to certain size pairings. They're not difficult changes to make, but not everybody is willing to make them. Also, they're at least as much on the follower's side as the leader's, and I think a lot of followers are uncomfortable owning up to "I'm really tall, so I can't dance with this leader like the other followers do" or "I'm really heavy, so I can't dance with this leader like the other followers do."

Tied up in this is a further issue of pride: Some people want to dance in a specific embrace because to them it's "real tango" or feels good. When their partner signals another embrace that might work better with the realities of the heights and weights involved, they get disappointed or even offended. Some go so far as to force the embrace they like, regardless of whether it's a good idea. Both leaders and followers do this.

We had one very short leader here (shorter than most followers I know) who was obsessed with dancing very close and flatly refused to open up the embrace at all; he danced blind with his face in the follower's décolletage, resulting in poor floorcraft and eventually getting him branded "creepy." We also had one very tall, strong follower here who was equally obsessed with dancing very close, and clamped all men into her décolletage, effectively blinding and nearly suffocating them. Attempts by partners to force a more open embrace were seen as insulting, even though they were entirely sensible and practical.

My suspicion is that in both cases, it wasn't about how they were taught but how they wanted to dance. My view is that, barring a willingness to manage their expectations, the leader in question should've sought out short followers exclusively and the follower in question should've sought out tall leaders exclusively.

 

[Tangogal]

That's less of an issue for followers who are willing to take on 50% of the floorcraft, but I haven't noticed that taller followers are any less prone to closing their eyes or any more willing to use their superior height to spot trouble and warn me.

This is a teaching problem. Followers need to be taught that the first connection point is the eyes. They should also be taught that they are responsible for a portion of the floorcraft- mostly stopping the leader from stepping back into another couple but also to modify their boleos to the floor situation. It cannot be 50% as most followers are blindly stepping backwards but it could be 30%. Leaders need to choose the figures that best suit their visual range.

“ less prone to hanging, which more troublesome at 85 kg than it is at 45 kg.”
Again a teaching problem that should be in the earliest of lessons.

 

[Rabbit]

I think the dance works best when the partners are relatively close in size. Differences have to be compensated by better technique. It's true that you can dance in really loose open hold, but I don't enjoy dancing tango that way with most followers.

 

[JournalInTime]

This is a teaching problem.

Again a teaching problem that should be in the earliest of lessons.

You're right that when people aren't taught these things, it's a problem . . . but I think that far more often, people are taught these things and choose to ignore them. I've voiced my views about continuing lessons throughout one's tango life many times, and will do so once more.

I used to accompany classes a lot, and sometimes assisted at teaching them. I also ran a práctica for a long time. Consequently, I danced with many, many followers from their beginner days through a period of years. What I remarked was that most of them dropped lessons at some point and started to dance in a way that was one or more of "easier for them," "what they saw other followers doing at the milonga," or "what leaders at the milonga asked for or taught on the floor" . . . even when that was terrible technique.

I brought this up with my teacher, who agreed with me. She taught proper technique, as did many of her colleagues. She said it pained her to see that slowly melt away and be replaced by poor technique. She had a few choice words for close-eyed woman who didn't watch for collisions, and used leaders as glorified poles or ballet barres. That wasn't her fault; it was the pressure of the community encouraging followers to "blissfully close their eyes and rely on the big, strong leader to keep them safe and upright."

Alert, independent followers don't get as many invitations. My own partner suffers from this. She refuses to dance close-eyed and submissively, and takes control of about half the dance. Consequently, a lot of leaders won't invite her. And a lot of followers don't like how she dances, either . . . just yesterday, one took the time to tell me that my partner seemed insistent on maintaining good follower technique when "most leaders don't really want that."

It cuts the other way at times, too. There's one follower whom I quite like as a person, but I dislike inviting her because she insists on repositioning my right hand in a way that engenders bad posture and technique. She likes it more, and claims it's more comfortable, but my teacher would take a yardstick to my knuckles for it. So, despite liking this person, I rarely dance with her, because I'm not going to dance with a rigid, high frame and no weight-sharing.

 

[Rabbit]

So, despite liking this person, I rarely dance with her, because I'm not going to dance with a rigid, high frame and no weight-sharing.

Yeah I also dislike the rigid frame approach. I can lead almost anything without activating the arms, so why would I want to maintain that frame constantly?

 

[JournalInTime]

Yeah I also dislike the rigid frame approach. I can lead almost anything without activating the arms, so why would I want to maintain that frame constantly?

I have no idea.

My partner and I practice weekly even when we can't go dancing. One of our standard practice exercises is no-arms dancing. We dance exclusively with torso and occasional leg contact. At this point, we can dance our whole vocabulary that way except for (1) overturned follower steps, such as most follower back sacadas and overturned ganchos, and (2) colgadas (hopefully for obvious reasons . . . i.e., physical impossibility). So, that's how we dance even when we have arms, except for those two classes of steps.

Yet my partner got called out by some guy for having "no frame." It really bugged him. Apparently, he had Argentine tango confused with some sort of ballroom dance.

And likewise, this woman whom I otherwise like is all about the frame. She likes both partners to have their hands on the closed side really high up, on the outside of the body (practically more on the arm than the back), and rigid. I simply refuse to dance that way, because it's stiff, unnatural, and blocks vast amounts of movement. I'm not sure anything is improved by it. I dance with my arm all the way around my partner, just above waist level, with as little tension as possible so that my partner could quite literally pirouette 360° without my arm being an issue.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Great dancers also get bored sitting round all night at a milonga. Even if a leader is very middling they’re more fun than a chair.

I wonder. I get the impression that some are happy to sit around and wait. If they've been dancing for 20+ years, they can become a bit blasé about it all and simply dance with their favorites once in a while. They don't really need to dance all that much if they're also socializing.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Perhaps the problem lies in teaching that there’s only one way to dance or only one embrace?

Maybe. For me it is primarily aesthetic. I (who am not tall) have danced with women who are taller than me. It depends how good they are and how they dance. It also really depends how much taller they are. Beyond a certain differential, it's not all that much fun. I'm most comfortable dancing with followers who are about my height.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

clamped all men into her décolletage, effectively blinding and nearly suffocating them.

There are worse ways to go.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

And likewise, this woman whom I otherwise like is all about the frame. She likes both partners to have their hands on the closed side really high up, on the outside of the body (practically more on the arm than the back), and rigid.

That sounds very uncomfortable. I don't like dancing with people who are rigid or stiff. Some women, who have done a lot of ballroom and then move over to tango, have a tendency to dance that way. They stick their right arm way out there and keep it rigid. That's not for me. (By the way, that's one of the things you can tell from watching someone dance.)

 

[Tangogal]

Somewhere there’s a video of Ariadna Naveira leading a slightly taller woman and doing it beautifully. Ariadna is about average height 5’ 5” (165cm).

An Average man is about 5’ 10” (178cm) which is very tall for a woman think Gigi Hadid, Kendall Jenner, Cindy Crawford is a little shorter. So unless your milongas are populated by supermodels you probably don’t come across taller women all that often.

 

[Tangogal]

I wonder. I get the impression that some are happy to sit around and wait. If they've been dancing for 20+ years, they can become a bit blasé about it all and simply dance with their favorites once in a while. They don't really need to dance all that much if they're also socializing.

I think this point has been discussed elsewhere. The majority of people at a milonga are there to dance. Now maybe a person only has three or four tandas in them (for various reasons including health) and they prefer to sit out rather than dance with just anybody. IMO those people (including myself on occasion) are few and far between. Socialising can be done at a pub or café more easily and without an entrance fee.

I have found that as a follower gets older the invites get fewer and they make do with just a few dances with old friends and chatting with their cohort. That doesn’t mean they’re not interested in dancing outside their circle or with younger leaders. Just ask! A friend of mine, who is a retired lady, considers it a great success if she has three nice tandas in a night. In her daily life she’s a successful stage actor, playwright and university lecturer but at a milonga she’s just another follower waiting to be asked.