Frustrated Lead

DanceDrummer

Active Member
Any others get tired of it being blamed when it is the follower not doing their part? I’ve discovered a myth, “If you can lead it I can follow” ...haha! ;)

Some with big ego's don't want to hear it but are more than willing to dish out the criticism. How is that a constructive partnership?
 
I am a follower and I'll tell you that it usually goes the other way. However, as a dance partner, I either say something neutral without assigning fault or take the fault on myself. In a few situations, where there's a acknowledged-by-the-leader weakness or frequent error on the leader's part, I will reference it quickly if that's what I'm feeling. It's good feedback for the leader.

Is this happening in social dancing, a partnership, or a class? If a social situation, part of your job as a leader is to suss out what kind of a follower you are dancing with by the feeling of the connection and to lead accordingly (not saying it's easy, plus I'm sure it takes a lot of practice to learn to do, but I can't tell you how much it is appreciated by followers). If in a partnership, I agree, it's not constructive communication. If in something like a class, I ask for help when a lead/follow situation isn't working. Sometimes the teacher has to dance with both of us to figure out why something isn't working. In a large class, I can sometimes ask a question that elicits the necessary question, particularly if something has happened with more than one leader.
 
I agree. I have been blamed for a lot, and very rarely have the accusations been true. You learn to let it roll off of you, because getting into finger-pointing benefits no one.

The only feedback that I have ever given a leader on the social floor (aside from "ow, that hurts", which is fair game no matter the experience level of the parties involved) is with leaders who have honestly asked why something isn't working, and that's only been in the last couple of years as I've hit a certain level of proficiency.. In classes, unless I'm teaching, it's "let's ask the instructor" or "let's try x". That's what teachers and coaches are for - and to be honest, it's usually a little bit of both people's fault, because there's a whole action/reaction or cause/effect thing that happens while dancing.

In a dedicated partnership, things get a little more direct, but even there, there's often no blame (unless one of us is tired/cranky/hangry). The phrasing is usually "I'm feeling x, and that is causing effect y. What if we try z? Or maybe a?"
 
Tired of being blamed? Oh, yeah. That happened for years in Argentine Tango.
Probably in the learning phase, which usually lasts for years, most people are more interested in developing their own skills, rather than learnng how to form productive partnerships.
I've learned to avoid people who aren't interested in making it work, rather than, say, trying it again, then moving on if it still didn't work, no matter who is "at fault."
For me it's a Social dance, which requires a certain amount of social skills, which are rarely adressed in classes.

Another myth that you may already be aware of is, "it's always the leader's fault."
 
Any others get tired of it being blamed..
Not agreed! Ive got to know that "sorry, my fault" as a useful ritual. Once said, the situation is cleared, (regardless, who really was to blame). Of course, its empty of content, meaningless, just a bridge. Im an experienced dancer, nevertheless, I still use it. In the end, it has some advantages: yet its kind of a "skip".
 
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Maybe sometimes it IS the follower's fault. Oh, and ALSO it is the leader's fault. In fact maybe all the time both partners were imperfect. Maybe all the time everybody has an opportunity to learn how to improve the interaction between the partners.
 
Any others get tired of it being blamed when it is the follower not doing their part?

In a dance class, there is this feature named a teacher, who will tell who is to blame. If it's a social event, then each one blacklists the other and that's iit. The only cases I witnessed where a follower kept blaming the leader dance after dance, step after step and the leader kept dancing with her were married couples.
 
Interesting responses, great advice, awesome site, thank you!

As a drummer in a band, it is said one of the primary roles is to keep time. When I was an AM I practiced to a metronome @ various BPMs daily to obtain almost perfect time alone. When I went to apply that to AM bands it fell apart and they all looked at me as the fault. Later as I turned pro, I realized what a myth that is, everyone in the band has to have good timing. In that case, it becomes obvious where the issues are and it is not always the drummer. It really becomes evident when I had the metronome in head phones in band practice or recording studios. I see my dancing now as no different.

I ask myself three questions after a performance or practice in this order,
  • What went well?
  • What didn’t?
  • What can be done to improve?
I like to start with one since it sets a good tone for constructive communications. I don’t criticize myself or others for starters. Not constructive! Red Flag #1

Two needs to be handled with care, it’s called “constructive criticism”. If one is going to start with being a critic, which is usually the case I don’t recommend because it puts most on the defensive, then be prepared to be on the receiving end. Some don’t want to hear it I won’t work with. If you find you’re stating, or some in my experience demanding, your needs without asking what your partner needs that is a bad sign…. Red Flag #2.

If 1-2 went well #3 is where constructive reconstruction can take place once strengths are weaknesses have been constructive identified, a recovery plan can be developed.

This philosophy applies to all relationships, all levels, all situations.

I like to think of all relationships as 150/150% ownership's, not 50/50. In my mind, the excess 50% is reserved to work out the weaknesses or disagreements of either partner or any broken link.

At social dances most AMs follow this by saying thank you for the dance. It does not take long during the dance for it to become evident that the lead is not “always the problem” or “if it is lead properly it can be followed”. Also, I don’t expect much walking in the door dancing for the first time. Other times, I am at fault but still prefer the process above to communicate. I hold myself accountable to this standard.

It is the AM instructors I have had the worse experiences with. Pro’s big difference but still I won’t work with one that can’t follow the 1-2-3 process is not receptive to my not agreeing or giving advice.

My last experience involves a Pro I am considering for Pro-AM competiton and her studio of AM instructors. She talked me into going to a Bolero class since I am looking for a partner and there was an AM instructor that was getting done with a private she had arranged and thought I should try. It is rare I attend beginner classes. A different one of her Am instructors was teaching the class. So I paid the $10.

Immediately she jumped to step 2 looking for any fault she could find. So, she said my steps at my shoulder width were too large. I’m 6’2 long legs, her 5’4 (which was the height of my last short legged pro that could travel further than I could, so I know it can be done). She said, “she needs me to take smaller ones and we need to dance closer”. OK, next attempt after hearing her dish out a lot of other ill advice while I remained silent, I noticed her leaning into 5th position break on the side step, she was pushing on me with a side body lean which caused me to go off balanced and take a large step back in this case. So, I stopped in the act and told her. She didn’t want to hear it, walked away, threw her hands up in a sarcastic manner.

Immediately the instructor dashes over to me to dance, see for herself I guess? I’m asking myself, I identified her as the problem why are you not dancing with her first? Do you not beleive me, do you really think you can be her? So, I stopped her and asked if this were some sort of test? I could already anticipate the outcome as I am at fault, instructors of the same studio typically back one other up, of different do not. She didn't want to hear anything I had to say and walked off when I was explaining the push action being the issue.

The pro had been calling me often trying to get my business. The way I see it is, the AMs jobs were to find fault to promote sales lessons but were terrible in their approach.

Later, I went to DVIDA discovered the female teacher is not teaching the class right, more specially the lead parts I had challenged I investigated again to make sure I am correct. I am careful where I get my instruction from these days and ams instructors are all over the place. The instructor I was dancing with was telling me to some steps that differed from what the instructor teaching the class, so, the two of them were not of the same page. I use DVIDA as bible, look for instructors and ams on the same page. In this case, the pro is but said others in her studio did not know it, so they are not all on the same page. Not good! Most am students probably don't notice it but I do.

I have not heard from the pro since. If I were her I would want to get my side of the story, there is usually two sides. Explains why the attendance is so low especially leads.

My take away’s - Validates whom I will and won’t work with at any level. It inspired me to take a closer look at the Bolero steps so that is good!

When it comes to learning I have adopted the philosophy that there is no means to an end – there is always room for improvement. Therefore, I’ll never "arrive" at the end, so, I break it down to arrival points. Even after 30 years of drumming, I recently learned a lot in a pro taught AM Brazilian Samba class lately I did not know.

Red Flag #3 for me Pro or AM is when someone is trying to hard convince people how great they are and have closed the door on learning. In my mind, that is showing an obvious lack of confidence or insecurities.

Steve: "I've learned to avoid people who aren't interested in making it work, rather than, say, trying it again, then moving on if it still didn't work, no matter who is "at fault."

Good advice! This studio is off my list.

If you don’t agree or find fault in any of what I wrote, and I am sure it can be found, try the 1-2-3 process, it works, more people will listen better which is already hard to find, people that really listen as well as they talk, I have found.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. I feel better venting and putting things into perspective :)
 
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I am confused... you were an AM (amateur, I assume?), but then turned Pro, but then you were looking for a Pro partner for Pro-AM where you would be the AM? And what is all this about AM instructors? I thought teaching automatically disqualified you from being an AM.

tbh, the feedback approach you outlined sounds pretty rigid to me, I don't think it's reasonable to expect everyone you come into contact with to somehow read your mind and abide by the prescribed sequence you've designed. And unfortunately, there's not always going to be a "both sides" opportunity (it's a dance studio, not a court of law). It's not clear that you yourself are receptive to constructive criticism, perhaps if you had a couple examples like the ones you gave where it was apparently someone else's fault.

Regarding the original question, IME overall I would not say that either side is routinely unfairly blamed when things go awry, and most situations are handled without hostility or resentment - it gets laughed off/ignored in a social setting, or there is a genuine interest in understanding it in a class environment. There are occasional exceptions, but for the most part I find the leaders to be gracious and I don't call them out if something doesn't go as planned. Sometimes they will ask me what they did wrong, and if I can (and there is not an instructor to defer to), I will try to offer up a helpful insight, but I certainly don't make a habit of giving leaders a "what-for", that's the best way to get blacklisted.
 
It's not clear what you mean by "AM". It seems that sometimes "AM" = "amateur" and other times "AM" might mean "Arthur Murray". What exactly is an "AM instructor"?
 
Snapdancer: AM means amateur in my post. I add this to the post but cannot edit. I should had known better to use acronyms, sorry!

LndyLady: IME = In My Experience? We all have them, some only we will understand!

I am an amateur dancer and I don’t teach. Pro drummer I do teach. Sorry, for the confusion I can relate my drumming to dancing and see it as an extension of the band/music
 
I don't have a history with this studio, pro, or instructors, I'm shopping. I believe both instructors are amateur's that have appointed themselves as instructors do not compete or abide by NDCA rules on it. My point is "my" experience with them or any amateur instructor has not been good so far, it varies too much, does not mean that is and will always be the case. I prefer pro instructors but even them, some can teach better than others. I have had excellent instructors so far, Rachael Moore, GA, Olga Foraponova Wright, WA, I know what I am looking for.
 
OP, I agree that it sounds like that studio should be off you list. On the other hand, from what you reported, you were not exactly diplomatic. When I am dancing with a new-to-me-lead and we are trying to work something out, I might say something like "that is not the feeling I am used to--I usually aim for xyz. What is your goal here?" Sounds like you said, more or less, "you are wrong." All the same, sounds like that was not a person you want to work with.

So, you are looking both for an amateur partner and a professional to do pro/am with? For competitions?

What part of DVIDA do you take as a bible? To a certain extent, it is a curriculum of elements, steps/figures. That should not be a bible..... Plus, at high levels of dancing, true experts disagree about some aspects of dance, including proper technique.

(My primary teacher once explained the difference in how different former world champions expect to be lead. "X expects me to do this; Y would have my head if I did". How is a mere mortal to sort it out? ;))
 
Rise N Fall: If I tried to explain all the happened it be a long book. I did diplomatically communicate that the Bolero Lead drop step 1/2 degree turn back step leading into an underarm turn(UAT) being taught did not feel right, I said I don't dance it that way it was throwing me off, so the instructor I was dancing said to not do one at all which is not right and I cannot do either.... So I was getting mixed messages from two instructors.

Later, I went and checked DIVIDA that does list in tables with associated video, per step, but it teaches an open break Turning Basic prior to commencing a UAT lead 5th position break to Follower spot UATR, which is what I lead.

Foot Position: RF behind, TTO (Toe Turned Out) drop step .
Dance Postion: UAT (Under Arm Turn)
Lead: Circle hand out to lead Follower to spot UATR w/fwd cup (I got from video)
Turn: 1/8 R
Footwork: BF
Count: Q

Just got done strengthening the hand positions and tracks on this today, not easy alone, I'll go test it at a social dance this weekend. That is until I find an amateur partner or pro to rehearse with.

DVIDA tables also denotes rise-fall, sway, etc, for smooth and other actions associated to the dance. In it the proper turn on that step is 1/8, not 1/2 or 0 being taught.

DVIDA is working great for me I use it daily and I am progressing very fast, no need to fix what is not broken. I choose to stick with it for now and my pro instructors agree. I compete on a national level so all my pros are in communications and know each other, we are all on the same page w/DVIDA. Unfortunately, I travel alot for work which is good and bad.
 

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