Ganchos and wrong spots...

[Peaches]

The "hitting guys in the wrong spot" thread over in the ballroom forum keeps making me smile when I think about AT.

I don't like doing ganchos, but I particularly don't like outside/back ganchos. Especially b/c I'm paranoid about hitting the guy in the wrong spot. With inside ones I feel more confident in my judge of where things are (and where my legs are not).

I've become even more paranoid having been gancho-ed (during a molinete), and wow, I was glad I'm not a guy. Because, yeah, I got gancho-ed in the absolute wrong (right?) spot--if I'd been a guy, that would have ended any thoughts of kids, lemme tell ya.

I'm also very cautious when it comes to sacadas, for the same reason.

So...guys...any thoughts on this phenomenon in AT? Tips? suggestions for us ladies for keeping "the boys" safe?

 

[Dave Bailey]

So...guys...any thoughts on this phenomenon in AT? Tips? suggestions for us ladies for keeping "the boys" safe?

If in doubt, do it slowly...

I think, from a guy's point of view, this is a "learning curve" thing - it actually helps to do it wrong a couple of times, as an incentive to ensure the positioning is correct

I'm now reasonably confident to lead some slow ganchos, after about 15 months' learning. I'm still hesitant about doing ganchos myself, however, unless it's with my regular dance partner; and even then I do them slowly.

I really think this is one of those things that just needs lots and lots of work, practice and feedback from teachers. Although, come to think of it, that pretty much describes the entirety of AT anyway.

 

[Peaches]

From the ballroom thread...

The worst I got was in Argentine tango: a little confusion between swinging her leg up around my waist while I was only trying to get her to kick between my feet. I ended up with the alignment I wanted; she got the height with the leg that she wanted. Then I was on the floor.

Christopher

Ooooooh....ow ow ow ow...
It's a hazardous variation I hadn't thought of.

 

[bordertangoman]

I don't like doing ganchos, but I particularly don't like outside/back ganchos.
?

What do you mean by outside/back ganchos?

 

[Peaches]

Could just be my teacher's term for them. How to explain...

Back/outside ganchos are where I'm kicking back behind myself. Often, I'm at right angles to the guy (who usually has a leg stuck out in front of him). It's what seems to get led more often.

As opposed to inside ganchos, where I'm kicking in front of my standing leg. I've had them led from an open embrace, facing the lead. He sticks a leg out, and I end up kicking around it and in front of my other leg. Kind of like an inside leg wrap, but with a rebound, if that makes sense. Often with this kind of gancho, it's a mutual deal.

I don't know how else to describe it, sorry.

 

[bordertangoman]

Could just be my teacher's term for them. How to explain...

Back/outside ganchos are where I'm kicking back behind myself. Often, I'm at right angles to the guy (who usually has a leg stuck out in front of him). It's what seems to get led more often.

As opposed to inside ganchos, where I'm kicking in front of my standing leg. I've had them led from an open embrace, facing the lead. He sticks a leg out, and I end up kicking around it and in front of my other leg. Kind of like an inside leg wrap, but with a rebound, if that makes sense. Often with this kind of gancho, it's a mutual deal.

I don't know how else to describe it, sorry.

The latter sounds like a sentada or a sacada on your backstep.

Only the former is a gancho.

Okay if you hook your leg around the man's and the only bend is in the knee, the risk of hitting anything valuable is low. If you kick his blocking leg then he's probably not doing it proporely and needs to get his wight off it, bend his knee and possible lift his foot. If you kick his standing leg hard to say without seeing it.

 

[Peaches]

Um...no sentada or sacada, with or without backstep, going on. At least not in my understanding of a sentada or sacada.

It's not a displacement of any sort--it's a stationary figure. Maybe kind of like a sentada--but with more force, and there's a leg in the way that the kick ends up wrapping around.

I guess with a gancho, I'm concerned about how far up on his leg I'll be kicking around (how close to the family jewels, in other words), and I have a hard time with the timing of it (not letting my knee flex until the motion of my upper leg is stopped). Don't know how to describe it.

I just know it's something that will take practice, but am loathe to do so. Especially after getting gancho-ed myself a few times. At least my teacher is taller than me, so odd of doing damage are pretty low! Dear god, I don't like the way it feels on the reciving end. I probably just need to learn to ground myself (well, I know I need to ground myself)...but it's just such a...jarring, violent feel. Very disruptive to my state of mind.

 

[Ampster]

Ganchos can be done if front, to the side, and behind the lead.

The Ganchos are always led. It's the lead's job to do so. It's the follower's job to wait to be lead into a gancho.

IME (and lots of observations), when a follow executes an unlead gancho is when shins, "twigs and berries" get knocked around.

The lead always leads a gancho, because it is the lead's job to set up for it. That is, make space, and clear the way for the hook (gancho). If the lead does not set it up right, and leads it anyway, and gets hit... too bad, so sad, his fault.

The follow executes a resolute gancho when lead, this is so the rebound of the leg pulls the lead forward easily into the next lead steps (whatever it may be). The gancho should feel solid as it hooks (ganchos) around the lead's blocking leg. This should be done only when lead.

For the followewrs, If in doubt, do a sentada. Which is basically a cross in front of the follow's supporting leg without a wrap around

 

[Ampster]

Originally Posted by callen
The worst I got was in Argentine tango: a little confusion between swinging her leg up around my waist while I was only trying to get her to kick between my feet. I ended up with the alignment I wanted; she got the height with the leg that she wanted. Then I was on the floor. :sad:

Christopher

Sounds like he didn't know how to lead it, as he was setting it up, BUT, he was waiting for her to execute it. The gancho around the waist has a very, very, very different lead that cannot be mistaken for a regular gancho.

 

[bordertangoman]

Um...no sentada or sacada, with or without backstep, going on. At least not in my understanding of a sentada or sacada.

It's not a displacement of any sort--it's a stationary figure. Maybe kind of like a sentada--but with more force, and there's a leg in the way that the kick ends up wrapping around.

I guess with a gancho, I'm concerned about how far up on his leg I'll be kicking around (how close to the family jewels, in other words), and I have a hard time with the timing of it (not letting my knee flex until the motion of my upper leg is stopped). Don't know how to describe it.

I just know it's something that will take practice, but am loathe to do so. Especially after getting gancho-ed myself a few times. At least my teacher is taller than me, so odd of doing damage are pretty low! Dear god, I don't like the way it feels on the reciving end. I probably just need to learn to ground myself (well, I know I need to ground myself)...but it's just such a...jarring, violent feel. Very disruptive to my state of mind.

Ah yes ( sound of coin dropping)........ 'wraps'

yes the lead for a wrap is similar to a boleo: the momentum carries the relaxed leg around the man's: if you are adding energy to this then DON'T

 

[Peaches]

Sounds like he didn't know how to lead it, as he was setting it up, BUT, he was waiting for her to execute it. The gancho around the waist has a very, very, very different lead that cannot be mistaken for a regular gancho.

I was kind of thinking the same thing, but wasn't going to say anything b/c it was the ballroom forum, and I don't lead, and I'm a beginner.

But...yeah...I'm not sure how I'd confuse a lead for a "gancho around the waist" (which sounds like a high, outside leg wrap) with a kick between the legs. Wow...different feels going on.

 

[Peaches]

The Ganchos are always led. It's the lead's job to do so. It's the follower's job to wait to be lead into a gancho.

IME (and lots of observations), when a follow executes an unlead gancho is when shins, "twigs and berries" get knocked around.

LOL. I don't even know how I'd go about doing an un-led gancho... Short of choreography, perhaps, and having it as part of the routine and doing it automatically instead of waiting for the actual lead. But spontaneously?

How does that happen? When does that happen? Usually there's other stuff going on (like a step!)...

 

[Peaches]

Ah yes ( sound of coin dropping)........ 'wraps'

yes the lead for a wrap is similar to a boleo: the momentum carries the relaxed leg around the man's: if you are adding energy to this then DON'T

Oooh...no...I don't add force to a wrap. Sometimes I'll try for a bit of snap to my knee in a boleo, but never for a wrap.

 

[Ampster]

Originally Posted by Ampster
The Ganchos are always led. It's the lead's job to do so. It's the follower's job to wait to be lead into a gancho.

IME (and lots of observations), when a follow executes an unlead gancho is when shins, "twigs and berries" get knocked around.

LOL. I don't even know how I'd go about doing an un-led gancho... Short of choreography, perhaps, and having it as part of the routine and doing it automatically instead of waiting for the actual lead. But spontaneously?

How does that happen? When does that happen? Usually there's other stuff going on (like a step!)...

IME: I have danced with many beginners who have not yet learned and grasped the concept of lead and follow. This also occassionay happens with some seasoned dancers who are not familiar with AT, but are trying.

What they have in common is, they want to look good, collect and memorize steps. A lot of them have assumed that a parrada is the lead for a gancho. So, once they step over... "Doink! Uh, *&%$%$, breathe, saunter over to your chair... and smile "

 

[Peaches]

Oooooh...from a parrada, I hadn't thought of that.

I should have thought of it, because I know I've had them led from that point. Usually, though, I'm just encouraged to play around for a bit.