opendoor
Forum Master
This is a photo of what Sebastián Arce called "deep embrace" (V-hold). It was taken at an open air milonga 1931 in Berlin (Wannsee) by Eva Besnyö.
Get Outta There!!
- Thread starter tangomaniac
- Start date
There was a lot more to the workshop I attended but the preferred embrace (perhaps by request?) for that workshop was squared up not V. The not crossing the midline was about leaders not causing the followers to “break the body line”. I didn’t take any notes though so perhaps I missed something.
tangomaniac
Well-Known Member
There's a lot of information to digest. I'm going to be more observant than usual and experiment for a better understanding.
Or they dissociate, but then somehow turn to face straight ahead, leaving the follower at their side on 4/5 for the cross rather than leading the follower into the cross. And then we get to 6 (and moving the follower with the chest)...
The problem referred to, however, appears to be before any movement has even been initiated. My suspicion then is something about the basic embrace, which seems to have become something more formal and stereotyped than a 'hug' - and assuming it's not an intended style. Various opinions about the position of the leader's right arm and hand seem to indicate that this is pulling the follower round to the side rather than blocking and keeping the follower aligned.
Any of the above is pure speculation. It could just be a set of followers. This really needs to be observed to consider adjustments.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
At the very least, as a leader you should carefully check if there is enough leeway in the right elbow. I usually have to come far forward with my shoulder when leading left turns or such moves. Sometimes it doesn't work either and I just put my hand on the lady's back, which for me is quality downgrade of the embrace.
I frequently have to suffer this. I fully sympathize with you!
There must be something wrong going on in the teaching these days. I find more women trying to offset themselves to my right. If I adjust that by correcting the embrace after a short while they will have slide back! The worst are who slide to the right in a V embrace.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Well, I'm with you on the aesthetic front.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Embrace them center to center with a firm embrace and make sure she pulls in tight with her arm over your shoulder and she won't move. Of course, not every woman dances that way...but many do. You just have to find them.
If I were to only dance with the followers that I like dancing with, it will not be a problem. Tonight I danced with someone whom I could prevent from sliding into far right. Last time I danced with the same follower three days back, she kept going into wide V + far right.
I don’t have issues adjusting frame and position during the dance to resolve these. Open the embrace a little, walk on dark side, forward orcho, and there are many other ways where you can make the follower move away from far right where they have tucked themselves and then close that space on the right (bring in the right upper arm, drop it and hold it firmer). But all that gets irritating and exhausting when you want to flow with the music. If a follower has one bad habit then they likely have other bad habits. It is like a leader that leans over, has other things that need fixing too. Many of the right side tuckers have misaligned axis due to being in that position (think of leaning tower of pisa), head tilting into the leader, and not properly balanced. Sometimes these are interconnected because they are self-compensating for their own wrong position or axis. With all those issues if they can’t walk well or land on the beat properly the problems are getting compounded.
I hadn’t realised so many leaders find a V-embrace uncomfortable. There nust be something wrong in how its being taught. Are people just copying from YouTube?
FWIW this is the squared-up, close embrace I mean:
This video shows the V-embrace, which they call “close embrace”, really well:
FWIW this is the squared-up, close embrace I mean:
This video shows the V-embrace, which they call “close embrace”, really well:
opendoor
Forum Master
That's it. Please do not fight for the right hold while dancing.
Or they're unaware that there were, and are, alternatives. Sometimes what you were once taught becomes the one true way. That's the way you were told the myth of how they used to dance. But when and where? Early 20th century? GA? AT as taught in US and Europe in 1980/90's? BsAs nowadays? Show tango? There's no standard or correct way, but there are ways that can be adopted to make the dance for the two participants work better in their situation.
opendoor
Forum Master
It is rather laziness and complacency to be trained by only one teacher. There are so many traditions, styles, physical theories and approaches to tango. Folks, swap teachers as often as you can.
Well that depends what's available within easy distance or budget, or re-location. Sometimes local teachers have visiting teachers, or even maestros, but beware: they may be selected to conform to the dictated style rather than offer another perspective.
tangomaniac
Well-Known Member
I wrote in a dance magazine that dancers should dance AT in AT Mode, not Ballroom Mode. My experience is that a lot of dancers migrate from ballroom. My experience in group lessons is that the focus is on steps, not what my AT teacher calls dance fundamentals (axis, frame, posture, and balance.) Frame isn't corrected.
This explains why I can't lead sacadas. When a couple dances ballroom, their sternums are off centered. Their feet are also off centered. To execute a sacada, I have to step into the space between my partner's legs. BUT, if the space is off centered, I can't get inside.
The same thing applies to barridas. I need my partner's foot directly in front of me. If it's off to the right, I may lose my axis trying to reach it. That's not good.
I expect more epiphanies.