Get Outta There!!

My coach tells me that a non-contact sacada is scary for the person receiving the sacada. It leaves too much doubt as to the true location of the foot/leg of the individual delivering the sacada.
That depends. It is possible to take the space such that the follower is not aware (contact would make them aware, but I'm not mansplaining the follower's perception of their dance). Similarly a follower's sacada can invade the leader's space without contact.

I don't think we're in disagreement. Just that 'sacada' is a blanket term used as part of several moves, and it has degrees of use.
 
I don't think we're in disagreement. Just that 'sacada' is a blanket term used as part of several moves, and it has degrees of use.
As one visiting teacher put it, "If you define a sacada as one partner taking the other's place, then all walks are just series of sacadas. So, while that's correct, we'll use the term to mean taking the other's place with contact." It isn't a right/wrong thing so much as a pedagogical tool for isolating a specific subset.
 
My rule of thumb is: thigh contact probably gancho, ankle or calf contact - the “not a gancho” move. Giant steps and the leader follows my feet: definitely sacadas of the no contact variety.
If I go for a high sacada, stepping in deep, then I think I'd go above the knee (thigh?) in extremis (but that may depend on relative size). Well, for a gancho to hook, the leader's leg has got to be above/around the knee. But, as @JournalInTime elaborated, the sacada generally goes with some body movement which takes the space.

And I wouldn't assume 'definitely'. Might need the steel toe caps and shin guards for practice:mad:, but I can think of such a move.
 
Above but never around. Anyone who dances an envelopment of any kind – gancho, enganche, piernazo, whatever – needs to avoid the knee itself. External pressure on the knee in any direction is simply dangerous.
True. You don't want to present a rigid leg with solid bone as an obstacle for the knee, nor too low. You need to feel that position above, maybe with adjustment as the leg hooks, for that long-legged partner - or not lead it, or they don't do it just because someone tried to lead it. You've hopefully got some measure of the partner before you get to ganchos.

And ganchos are another whole set of problems. I know of followers who only do them with select partners and avoid some men who persistently lead them.
 
And ganchos are another whole set of problems.
Yes.

I find that the safest are unweighted leg-on-unweighted leg mutual ganchos, where each partner hooks the other. I can lead those with total beginners, and they're safe because nobody has a foot anywhere near anybody else or the ground. There's no kicking or jarring weighting possible.

Whether it's safe for others nearby is a whole different question . . .

Whereas I lead overturned ganchos into my open step with equal weight on both legs after my back sacada only with my partner, because we're both overturned, there's weight everywhere, and one false move costs me important body parts.
 
The better instructors I've had emphasized one partner moving to where the other partner's axis is (was - timing is close). Some other instructors were more up front about leg contact -- to the point where I felt it was a vital part of the sacada. Any time I tried for contact the sacada didn't work.
 
According to this video, a sacada isn't an illusion. The video clearly shows the man stepping between the woman's legs.

I was taught to do back sacadas on the woman's sidestep, which is a 180 degrees pivot. I can tell I've done it correctly when I feel I pulled my back out. Executing on her back step seems easier.
It is only a difference between the vocabulary. What @opendoor said is often said by many instructors. In the video watch what he is saying at 1:35. And then the following explanation that lasts till 2:50 I think. He is saying the same (what @opendoor was saying) using different words. For sacada to work follower step also has to be sufficiently big enough for the leader to position his foot properly. This issue often comes up in the class. Leaders struggle because their follower is not taking correct size step or because the leaders are not rotating their shoulders/chest/upper body/ or the followers are stepping away from the leader. All three are the most common issues that come up during a class.

Rather than stepping between the follower’s leg, a better description is that you are stepping into the space that her feet is leaving.
 
The better instructors I've had emphasized one partner moving to where the other partner's axis is (was - timing is close). Some other instructors were more up front about leg contact -- to the point where I felt it was a vital part of the sacada. Any time I tried for contact the sacada didn't work.
Contrary to the heading, to some extent, you gotta get in there. But at the correct place, time and depth. Best (in practice, but normal hold) to do it s-l-o-w-l-y on either a follower's fwd or side step of the giro. You've also got to bend right to project (key word!) that foot and leg, aiming for just in front of the follower's trailing foot with intention (not at the foot!). If you're a bit in front, you can move the foot back and find the follower. You project a bit further and you're by the ankle, and so on. I think the video did both sacadas (follower fwd and side) with leader's right. I'd go for left-right. Don't collect on 5 (follower's cross) but leave right foot in place, or slightly behind and turned to be perpendicular (hips; body is leading) to follower's direction on fwd of giro. You're then in position to do the sacada with the left. Moving body forward, as @JournalInTime described, and pivoting on left causing the follower to complete the fwd step, to be perpendicular to follower on side step to sacada and pivot with right. The leader is leading; the follower is not free-running.

Interestingly on 5 you're leading follower to leader's right. In the 8CB you may lead follower slightly to left after cross and do a sacada on 6.

A video speaks a thousand words, and there's plenty out there. And a teacher can observe what's going wrong.

All I'll add is that (as leader) you can have no contact, light contact (follower may do a little flick adorno in passing over), low contact or high contact, and degrees in-between. Never found low or high useful on the follower fwd step and potentially bad for the follower (trip hazard).

E&OE
 
I hadn’t realised so many leaders find a V-embrace uncomfortable. There nust be something wrong in how its being taught. Are people just copying from YouTube?

FWIW this is the squared-up, close embrace I mean:


This video shows the V-embrace, which they call “close embrace”, really well:
The close embrace in 2nd video is not the V. It is same/similar to first video. Both are squared up. In the second she starts initiating the embrace on the close side giving the V look to it but then she moves to close the open side when they are in final embrace. They are fully squared as far as I am concerned. If she had’t closed the open side, that is the V embrace for me and there are followers that will dance that way. The follower’s technique if they want to dance in V embrace requires adjustments, which many don’t do. Also as @JournalInTime explained eloquently in other posts, certain movements get restricted. Some of the movements, the freedom or restrictions, get dictated by the type of embrace.

In the first video the embrace and frame hold at 9:40 only works with good dancers. There are followers who will take that space created by his right elbow to slip into the right side. The topic of this thread. Only way to keep them from doing so is to close that space by lowering the elbow or sliding the leader’s right arm further in without the leader leaning in to do so.

I found the videos to be too long. Not sure how much information is necessary and useful. There are many aspects/dynamics of the embrace and holding that are not mentioned. Practically, I feel you learn only 5% of what you need to from the videos of that length about the embrace positions.
 
the first video the embrace and frame hold at 9:40 only works with good dancers. There are followers who will take that space created by his right elbow to slip into the right side. The topic of this thread. Only way to keep them from doing so is to close that space by lowering the elbow or sliding the leader’s right arm further in without the leader leaning in to do so.
Thanks for re-stating my points in different words. However, as I previously said, in my lived experience as a follower, leaders that place their arms completely across my back have a tendency to pull to the closed side thus creating the offset themselves. If they are unbalanced with their embrace (noodle arms on the open side, arms of steel on the open side, head leaning on the followers etc) the whole dance becomes imbalanced.

As previously stated both partners have to be active in maintaining the embrace. If either is too passive it will drift out of shape

I also advocate for lowering the elbows during social dancing. Save the raised elbows for escenario when extra strength and a rigid frame might be required.
 
The close embrace in 2nd video is not the V. It is same/similar to first video. Both are squared up. In the second she starts initiating the embrace on the close side giving the V look to it but then she moves to close the open side when they are in final embrace. They are fully squared as far as I am concerned. If she had’t closed the open side, that is the V embrace for me and there are followers that will dance that way. The follower’s technique if they want to dance in V embrace requires adjustments, which many don’t do. Also as @JournalInTime explained eloquently in other posts, certain movements get restricted. Some of the movements, the freedom or restrictions, get dictated by the type of embrace.

When watching the YouTube link posted in the latest thread in the videos section, I stumbled upon this video that has what I call V embrace:



Incidentally in the YouTube video linked in that video thread, the same two dancers are dancing to De Sarli’s Bahia in what I call as a squared up open embrace to De Sarli. The first video in the posts above labeled it as salon style embrace.
 
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