Get Outta There!!

[ArbeeNYC]

How does UNESCO influence tango? Yes, I know it was added in 2009 to the 'Intangible Cultural Heritage', but is there any effect from that? I've occasionally seen some tourist/cultural promos from the Argentinian Embassy(?) for tango, but does it have any real effect? And who's promoting that concept?

Maybe it's just continuing evolution of the dance as it's used for tourism?

It doesn't have much effect on the dance itself. It helps attract tourists to B.A. and I think the gov't of Argentina invests some money in certain aspects of dance teaching but it does nothing AFAIK for the local milongas--much to the consternation of the organizers.

 

[itwillhappen]

I can no longer reconstruct it exactly, but the big dance schools (mostly Urquiza or Eszenario) divided the cake among themselves. The milonga organizers (as representatives of the milonguero style) got nothing.

I think it's easier to get public funding for dance classes than for a leasure mix of dance, food and drink.

But the narrative is that there is no alternative to the milongero style because the milongas are crowded and the floor is packed in BsAs.

 

[Brummbaer]

I think it's easier to get public funding for dance classes than for a leasure mix of dance, food and drink.

But the narrative is that there is no alternative to the milongero style because the milongas are crowded and the floor is packed in BsAs.

And, I guess, they would figure that the milongas get the result of the tourists, or are sustained by local custom.

Interesting about the 'graduates' of dance schools - who possibly go off to make their fortune elsewhere. Experience is that some, maybe the better, have diverse style skills; others teach what the audience wants, i.e. flashy.

 

[Loisa Donnay]

I wish that ordinary middle-aged couples with bellies, fat butts, short limbs, below-average height for men, above-average height for women, etc. would give more high-level classes. Ordinary middle-aged dancers with those features would dance better learning from them. As it stands, we're typically taught to dance by tall, long-limbed, athletic men and petite, flexible, no-body-fat women.

Unfortunately nobody would take lessons from them. People go to the teachers they WANT to look like, and who do the moves they WANT to do, not the kind who look like them or who even are particularly knowledgeable. If everyone would just go to the teacher who turns out the best dancers, tango would be wonderful!!

 

[LadyLeader]

Unfortunately nobody would take lessons from them. People go to the teachers they WANT to look like, and who do the moves they WANT to do, not the kind who look like them or who even are particularly knowledgeable. If everyone would just go to the teacher who turns out the best dancers, tango would be wonderful!!

I agree that the looks are important to attract new dancers to tango. It can work by waking up dreams to become something beautiful but showing a possibility even if you are short, long or really big is also valuable for many.

In Asia they have respect for tradition so Jorge and Maria Disparis were the respected main couple at Seoul, May festival during all the years. I could think that Aoniken Quiroga has also breaken the limits for many really big dancers!

As said earlier the teachers start repeating the moves and ways working for them self and it takes years to develop adaptations for the students of different build. In Seoul the main part of the students were young and thin so there the teaching was travelling to an opposite direction.

Here an Aoniken clip!

 

[Brummbaer]

Unfortunately nobody would take lessons from them. People go to the teachers they WANT to look like, and who do the moves they WANT to do, not the kind who look like them or who even are particularly knowledgeable. If everyone would just go to the teacher who turns out the best dancers, tango would be wonderful!!

There's more than a few seeds of truth there, particularly when one considers why one took up social AT. However with experience, hopefully, comes some discretion. I certainly don't want to look like some our teachers, but value their input and technical correction. I don't want the complex, flashy, moves without the ability to teach them well. And certainly don't aspire for fantasia moves; that ship has long sailed.

Certainly you've got to have an ability to sell yourself, and your product, and attract clients with what they aspire to.

 

[Bailango]

I also think that's quite likely. I can't get a convenient embrace if our sizes or circumferences are too different.

If you can't find a common dance hold right at the beginning, that's another matter.

My dance hold with the right arm changes according to the followers. There are some followers whose back circumference is less than the length of my entire forearm, from elbow to where wrist starts. I don’t have long arms at all. There are other followers where my palm can barely reach their closest (left) shoulder blade. Similarly some followers prefer high hold and others the low, slightly above or at waist. Body size and relative height also matters.

Find the best hold that works for each tanda. Don’t make her uncomfortable. Don’t push her off axis or balance due to the hold. As a leader it is the same with your own axis and balance. Don’t lean in or pull in the follower. The right arm should give a breathing room depending on the movement being danced. Not too loose and not too tight. That’s what I will tell any leader. No one true way.

 

[Bailango]

To bring some clarity:

-Salón and Canyengue are danced in V-hold.

-The Villa-Urquiza representatives claim to cultivate the last remaining Salón style.

-Naveira learned from Dinzel estilo Escenario and then developed Tango Nuevo (initially as a didactic method). I don't know why he did that, maybe he was too bad for the stage. Escenario claims to employ all possible dance postures.

-Naveira and Chicho now dance a completely different style than the one they once used to conquer the world. Visually they have come very close to Villa-Urquiza. The remaining differences are subtle, one can rather feel them: Urquiza stylists lead with the arms, Nuevo stylists lead through the core movement.

-There is no one and only tango. The fatal thing is that the Milonguero style is dying out in BsAs because it could not be subordinated easily to the Unesco advertising concept. What is called Tango Pista today is 100% Urquiza.

All this labeling gives me a headache. Because I have come to conclusion there is no consensus on what the labels mean. I have heard enough contradictory meanings and explanations to define a particular “style” by the type of embrace, that it is meaningless to argue.

My take is that more important is to realize is how different embrace types, affects the dance movements and to be aware of the differences in the degrees of freedom possible.

 

[Bailango]

I wonder if the problem is teachers say "put your right hand here and left hand here" without taking dimensions into account. My teacher told me to focus on my body position (square to the woman) and not reach so far around the woman my position changes.

Yes.

The problem is both at the teacher end and the student end. Some students take what is said as a gospel. Some teachers don’t stress that it is not a gospel.

 

[Brummbaer]

My dance hold with the right arm changes according to the followers.

Agree. Better for each to be in their optimum position, then to get the appropriate embrace and to keep each other there rather than worrying how far around you put your arm/hand.

Maybe that's the cause of the OP's issue?

And maybe it needs some input from followers on where they want to be and how loosely/tightly they wish to be held rather than these stylistic 'rules' for leaders.

 

[tangomaniac]

There's more than a few seeds of truth there, particularly when one considers why one took up social AT. However with experience, hopefully, comes some discretion. I certainly don't want to look like some our teachers, but value their input and technical correction. I don't want the complex, flashy, moves without the ability to teach them well. And certainly don't aspire for fantasia moves; that ship has long sailed.

I don't know if discretion is the right word. I prefer maturity or self-introspection.

I started with two months of bad group lessons (steps without understanding) followed by a month of semi-private lessons with a woman who wanted out of the group class as well. She later recommended Joe, who was my teacher for eight years.

Joe said he had to build a foundation, just like the foundation of a house. If the foundation cracks, the house will fall apart. He couldn't build on another teacher's foundation. I went back to the beginning.

Joe focused on the fundamentals of dance: axis, frame, posture and balance. (I know there won't be universal agreement on the fundamentals of dance.) The first year was all technique focusing on pivots and leading in apilado style. Of course, at the time, I didn't realize the importance of technique but I followed him anyway. It took months to be able to pivot 360 degrees on one foot.

When I started, I was pathetic. But after one year of lessons, I improved and became -- TERRIBLE!

I remember when I took 3 years of music theory in high school, I took piano lessons (for the second time.) The teacher drilled me on scales. (Does the name Czerny sound familiar to music students on this list?)
I had to understand whole and half steps and playing scales helped me understand sharps, flats, major and minor keys. Scales were the music foundation.

Joe said there were NO shortcuts to becoming a good dancer because he looked for them and couldn't find any.

 

[Brummbaer]

I don't know if discretion is the right word. I prefer maturity or self-introspection.

Yeah, maybe discernment.

I started with two months of bad group lessons

Joe focused on the fundamentals of dance: axis, frame, posture and balance. (I know there won't be universal agreement on the fundamentals of dance.)

I can understand that. Ours could have been similar: too much emphasis on fundamentals and insufficient dance. Like continually doing music scales but never playing a tune, even an exercise. Or learning a language by verb tables and genders but never conversing.

Fortunately we managed a mixture of getting sufficient basics combined with some interesting moves and sequences (broken down to the steps and body positions, hold, weight, posture, etc) with different teachers. So I suppose we found who helped with particular aspects, and no particular style except what worked (close, but I don't get into further breakdown).

But it does mean that now I do go back to how I walk, the intention, projection, transfer, etc, and the timing; how I pivot; how, we embrace; how and where I dissociate, etc, etc to achieve that step. Fortunately for us this wasn't alien to learning to dance anyway.

Joe said there were NO shortcuts to becoming a good dancer because he looked for them and couldn't find any.

Probably true, ignoring talent. But there are different routes. Some retain students by providing interest; others are boring and they drop away.

BTW how's it going with the follower's position?

 

[tangomaniac]

Yeah, maybe discernment.




I can understand that. Ours could have been similar: too much emphasis on fundamentals and insufficient dance. Like continually doing music scales but never playing a tune, even an exercise. Or learning a language by verb tables and genders but never conversing.

Fortunately we managed a mixture of getting sufficient basics combined with some interesting moves and sequences (broken down to the steps and body positions, hold, weight, posture, etc) with different teachers. So I suppose we found who helped with particular aspects, and no particular style except what worked (close, but I don't get into further breakdown).

But it does mean that now I do go back to how I walk, the intention, projection, transfer, etc, and the timing; how I pivot; how, we embrace; how and where I dissociate, etc, etc to achieve that step. Fortunately for us this wasn't alien to learning to dance anyway.


Probably true, ignoring talent. But there are different routes. Some retain students by providing interest; others are boring and they drop away.

BTW how's it going with the follower's position?

The primary problem isn't so much dancing in the armpit as the wedging into the armpit because the follower pushes herself into the armpit. Her right elbow should be bent so her arm can be closer to her center. Even if soft, I don't try sacadas and barridas unless we are centered, buttons-to-buttons my teacher called it. When we are centered, our feet are centered as well.

Think of a combination lock. Only the correct combination will cause the tumblers to fall into alignment so the lock can open. Without the alignment, the tumblers don't line up.

 

[Brummbaer]

The primary problem isn't so much dancing in the armpit as the wedging into the armpit because the follower pushes herself into the armpit.

Yes, but any strategies to keep the follower out of your armpit and centred? Maybe a fully open hold? Maybe keeping your right arm close in? Do you observe the same with other leaders? Do they dance with the teacher? And, as you pointed out, it starts before you initiate a step.

 

[tangomaniac]

Yes, but any strategies to keep the follower out of your armpit and centered? Maybe a fully open hold? Maybe keeping your right arm close in? Do you observe the same with other leaders? Do they dance with the teacher? And, as you pointed out, it starts before you initiate a step.

I see the same situation (outstretched arms) with other couples. I want close embrace so fully open hold won't work. A hard frame will never be good.

The best thing I can do for a follower is to give her an injection of muscle relaxer.

Joe said that few beginners have body awareness. I didn't have any awareness when I started. My embrace had the warmth of a straitjacket, according to one woman. I developed awareness only after years of embodied yoga. The therapist squeezed out the tension like squeezing toothpaste out of the tube and wringing water from a sponge.

I try to relax the follower's right arm but it's usually useless. Sometimes, I hold her wrist instead, to relieve the pressure in my arthritic shoulder. She is bound and determined to push. I wonder if a beginner leader told her to "give me resistance." If beginner leaders give resistance, the followers will give resistance in kind. This is a bad habit. Bad habits can be unlearned but one has to know (s)he has a bad habit.

Teachers who only teach steps and not dance fundamentals (axis, frame, posture, and balance) create Frankenstein Monsters on the dance floor. They move like the monster as well.