Get Outta There!!

[Brummbaer]

I see the same situation (outstretched arms) with other couples. I want close embrace so fully open hold won't work.

That's life. Sometimes you can't get what you want. Sometimes you have to compromise, and the embrace is a negotiation, and there's no 'one true way'. Sound like they have the ballroom model and want to emulate that, or that's what they were taught.

As I said, consult a teacher. Maybe one who has to deal with that and develop a strategy to work with it or around it, OR find some partners who conform to your embrace.

 

[opendoor]

..try to relax the follower's right arm.. to relieve the pressure in my arthritic shoulder... Bad habits can be unlearned but one has to know (s)he has a bad habit..

Hello, tangomaniac, I can understand you so well. I have osteoarthritis in both shoulders and a herniated disc in my cervical spine. Dancing is my hobby, but not torture.
That's why I say immediately and with an angry face directly on the dance floor: you are HURTING me. STOP it or this dance will be over at ONCE ! I have learned to take care of myself. I'm a tanguero, not a masochist. You can be blackmailed if you compromise. If there are no good followers at a milonga, I take my dance shoes off.

 

[Greybeard]

I try to relax the follower's right arm but it's usually useless. Sometimes, I hold her wrist instead, to relieve the pressure in my arthritic shoulder. She is bound and determined to push. I wonder if a beginner leader told her to "give me resistance." If beginner leaders give resistance, the followers will give resistance in kind. This is a bad habit. Bad habits can be unlearned but one has to know (s)he has a bad habit.

Might be a ballroom student at one time. We are trained to give resistance with both arms in ballroom. Not enough to be a fight, but enough for a positive connection.

I might be a bit rude, but if a partner is causing pain I don't think it would be improper to mention it between songs, even at a milonga. Probably put along the lines of "I have a problem shoulder, and I would be much more comfortable if ...".

 

[opendoor]

..have come to conclusion there is no consensus ..heard enough contradictory.. explanations.. it is meaningless to argue..

I do not share this attitude. When in doubt, my opinion counts. I have interviewed many influential dancers and stars to form my own opinion.

..My take is that more important is to realize is how different embrace types... and to be aware of the differences in the degrees of freedom possible..

But I think the same as you about this!

 

[opendoor]

..I might be a bit rude, but if a partner is causing pain I don't think it would be improper to mention it between songs..

You are very polite, Greybeard, but the origin of the aggression comes first from a clumsy dance partner. Poor technique is a bad habit (beginners excluded). I spent five years apologizing for being a beginner. Now I'll say it loud and clear, I won't dance with you anymore.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Unfortunately nobody would take lessons from them. People go to the teachers they WANT to look like, and who do the moves they WANT to do, not the kind who look like them or who even are particularly knowledgeable. If everyone would just go to the teacher who turns out the best dancers, tango would be wonderful!!

This may be true but, I have to say, when I started studying tango, I never ever thought about it from this perspective. It was certainly never a question of wanting to look like anyone else or even doing their moves. I just wanted to learn the basics and be the best tango dancer I could be. The "imitation game" might apply to some but I don't think it's as common as you think. Of course, people compare themselves all the time, but that is something different (and not always healthy).

 

[ArbeeNYC]

The first year was all technique focusing on pivots and leading in apilado style.

I took intro tango courses several times with different instructors; sometimes more than once with the same instructor. Simply to continually remind myself about what I needed to remember about the basics.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

OR find some partners who conform to your embrace.

That is the only way.

 

[JournalInTime]

This may be true but, I have to say, when I started studying tango, I never ever thought about it from this perspective. It was certainly never a question of wanting to look like anyone else or even doing their moves. I just wanted to learn the basics and be the best tango dancer I could be. The "imitation game" might apply to some but I don't think it's as common as you think. Of course, people compare themselves all the time, but that is something different (and not always healthy).

I came to tango wanting to meet other humans and do something more active than park at a desk (yet not so active that I'd have to become an actual jock). That was because I was – and have been since 1995 – a full-time telecommuter. My default day was "wake up, sit alone at a desk, forget about time, work for too long, and then go to bed."

I decided that dance would meet my goals. I picked tango because there was a dedicated tango school 10 minutes from my door, because my doctor said it was a good middle ground between "no exercise" and "overuse injuries" (she warned that she sees lots of those due to Latin dances and swing dance), and because research online suggested that tango would be complex enough to interest me indefinitely. I specifically wanted to avoid pattern-based dances; I wanted to improvise, as that's one of my strengths in other parts of life.

I remained with tango because I liked its music and dynamics – and yes, the theory that improvisation would provide infinite entertainment proved correct.

I was somehow able to sidestep being exposed to tango in TV shows, movies, YouTube videos, and so on. I never had idols. I still don't, although I do admire Esteban Moreno and Michael Nadtochi above the others.

But . . .

Working at the studio, the vast majority of students wanted to ape every last move and habit of some dancer (on TV, online, or just one of the teachers) and/or wanted to become an idealized physical version of a tango dancer in body type and sartorial habits. In particular, I met several women who went all-in losing weight, toning specific muscles, and investing vast sums in shoes and dresses that would help them "cheat" to get a specific look.

Based on that, I'd say that if you want to attract students to lessons, you must be someone who has moves, habits, a body type, and a style of dress that others covet. Even people who haven't a hope in Hades of ever pulling off an imitation want to point out their teachers and say, "You see that tall, elegant one with the great hair, shoes, and outfit? The one doing all that complicated stuff? That's my teacher!"

All I do is give my coach's business card out to anyone who asks, "I like how you dance. Who did you learn from?" If I'm not asked, I keep it to myself.

 

[Brummbaer]

I remained with tango because I liked its music and dynamics – and yes, the theory that improvisation would provide infinite entertainment proved correct.

We were attracted to social AT by seeing other dancers and asking How do they do that? The initial group classes and teacher wouldn't have retained us, nor their choices of music; it was more the technicalities, discovering other music, and then actually dancing and improvising, but I was a geek in my job.

Never got the dressing up part, beyond just being clean and smart, although shoes do have an attraction for women, even if uncomfortable.

All I do is give my coach's business card out to anyone who asks, "I like how you dance. Who did you learn from?" If I'm not asked, I keep it to myself.

Similarly. I'm rather surprised if asked, but it happens.

Nevertheless there are many things which first attract people into AT and doing it themselves. The next problem is in finding the right mix to retain them and keep them coming. As one teacher says: You like working things out and experimenting.

In a previous dance life our coach had some at the highest international levels, and then people like us for years. The social aspect was a key element, but she used to say that it wasn't the high-flyers who paid the mortgage and put food on the table, it was people coming back week-by-week.

From a business aspect, there's a higher cost in recruiting someone than retaining them, so it's better to retain staff unless you really want to be rid of them.

 

[JournalInTime]

We were attracted to social AT by seeing other dancers and asking How do they do that?

That didn't bring me to tango – I had no exposure to tango before starting lessons – but I caught a case of it after starting lessons. Attending prácticas, I saw more-advanced students doing things that weren't merely things I couldn't do yet, but things I couldn't understand how to do ever. The faint hope of learning that stuff kept me coming to classes at a time when I was too clumsy for the milonga and receiving little encouragement (my ex who had already studied many styles of dance was impatient with me).

The initial group classes and teacher wouldn't have retained us, nor their choices of music

I got lucky!

My initial group classes were with the woman who'd (much) later become my coach: a perpetually sunny person with a deep background in ballet, circus, Pilates, and yoga. She wasn't a grim, "All tango, all drills, and you must learn the culture and language, norteamericano!" type. We have a few of the latter here – had I met one of them, I'd have quit almost before I had started.

Her focus was on safe movement, and on originality and expression – not on classics and traditions. Her teaching style was supportive, not critical. She spoke English at a time when my French was still coming along and most of the city's teachers either spoke French or were the aforementioned types who yelled Spanish at a studio full of francophones in a region famously pro-French and anti-not French. (What the heck is that about?)

It also helped that she was simultaneously training her teaching partner: a young professional dancer in a prestigious contemporary dance company. He was so-so at tango but exceptionally talented at dance. He echoed the main teacher's focus on body and expression, because, "La danse c'est la danse. Un style est quelque chose à choisir plus tard."

Neither was someone I wanted to emulate, but both were people whose presence I appreciated. I know now that had I stumbled upon one of these "learned and lived in Buenos Aires, and this is how porteños dance the tango" teaching couples – with the look and the attitude – I'd have quite in my first session. To this day, I find that kind of teacher dire.

she used to say that it wasn't the high-flyers who paid the mortgage and put food on the table, it was people coming back week-by-week.

My coach has said that, too. We've paid her for private weekly lessons for years. For a while, it was a full day of teaching couples like us that paid her bills . . . minus studio rental, she hardly raked in a fortune, but she earned about what I earn at my day job.

The people who are too cool for school (almost literally in this case) plonk down their entry fee at the milonga but rarely bother with lessons, prácticas, etc. At most, they might deign to attend a special workshop by a visiting teacher (who will take the money out of the community). They randomly leave and return during the year, following whichever place is currently cool. They are the highest-profile people in the community, but they don't support anything much.

From a business aspect, there's a higher cost in recruiting someone than retaining them, so it's better to retain staff unless you really want to be rid of them.

This cuts both ways in the coaching relationship:

It's hard for a coach to find dedicated, perpetually improving students who may not be the most brilliant dancers ever but who keep coming back indefinitely. Trying to replace them by recruiting more talented students who can act as an "advertisement" for your teaching skills ends up costing you more than it's worth. It can even end up being bad publicity for your attitude.

It's hard for students to find a patient coach who might not be the most showy performer ever but who truly works with you and is aware of your personal journey. Trying to replace them by recruiting a higher-profile coach to whom you can point as a status symbol usually ends up costing you more than it's worth – especially if they're not honest, and insist on restarting you "their way" at great expense to you.

 

[Brummbaer]

"La danse c'est la danse. Un style est quelque chose à choisir plus tard."

Ça me plaît.

Always interesting how techniques from one dance form appear in another. Obvious when you consider it, but still interesting when you think I've done that before but it just had a different name and description.

And, of course, create your own style (or steal the best).

Finding a good coach isn't straightforward, but great when you do.

 

[tangomaniac]

Hello, tangomaniac, I can understand you so well. I have osteoarthritis in both shoulders and a herniated disc in my cervical spine. Dancing is my hobby, but not torture.
That's why I say immediately and with an angry face directly on the dance floor: you are HURTING me. STOP it or this dance will be over at ONCE ! I have learned to take care of myself. I'm a tanguero, not a masochist. You can be blackmailed if you compromise. If there are no good followers at a milonga, I take my dance shoes off.

Somebody who understands me! Finally! I've waited so long in life. LOL

I once told a woman she was pushing on my hand. She denied it because she had no body awareness. Instead of sounding like an attack, I now say "I can't lead because my shoulder hurts." She can deny she's pushing with her right arm. She can't deny I'm in pain.

I wrote to my former teacher about getting the woman out of the armpit and waiting for an answer.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I was somehow able to sidestep being exposed to tango in TV shows, movies, YouTube videos, and so on. I never had idols. I still don't, although I do admire Esteban Moreno and Michael Nadtochi above the others.

When I began I didn't even know such things existed. So there were very few temptations in that respect.

 

[Tangogal]

Somebody who understands me! Finally! I've waited so long in life. LOL

I once told a woman she was pushing on my hand. She denied it because she had no body awareness. Instead of sounding like an attack, I now say "I can't lead because my shoulder hurts." She can deny she's pushing with her right arm. She can't deny I'm in pain.

I wrote to my former teacher about getting the woman out of the armpit and waiting for an answer.

Is there a shortage of followers? Do you dance mainly with strangers? I’m sure most followers would be open to trying an adjustment to make the dance more comfortable.

I found that I was hurt less often when I stopped martyring myself out to beginners. I also learned to speak up (somewhat) when leaders were doing something that was uncomfortable. I stopped dancing completely with two popular leaders because they were too forceful for ME. Most of the other followers love dancing with them.

I was a lot happier accepting fewer invitations. My current limit, between my shoulder pain and lack of energy, is probably about three non-consecutive tandas in an evening anyway.