Giro or Molinette timing

[Temza]

Would you describe walking in a straigt line is a pattern? we go left-right, etc., there is a default timing (for some leaders at least) but the leader can change the timing of the walk.

perhaps my understanding of pattern is different from yours. my post was in response to this

"why there are so many protests against treating many other common actions in much the same way."

- because IMO a giro is not a pattern such as, for instance, a sandwich-parada-gancho combination
I understand a giro as a follower's walking. She can walk in a straight line, or she can walk around the leader in a circle (= giro)

 

[UKDancer]

Would you describe walking in a straigt line is a pattern? we go left-right, etc., there is a default timing (for some leaders at least) but the leader can change the timing of the walk.

perhaps my understanding of pattern is different from yours. my post was in response to this

"why there are so many protests against treating many other common actions in much the same way."

- because IMO a giro is not a pattern such as, for instance, a sandwich-parada-gancho combination
I understand a giro as a follower's walking. She can walk in a straight line, or she can walk around the leader in a circle (= giro)

Walking in a straight line is certainly a pattern: what makes it one is the predictability of what happens next. But there is no default timing, unless you are practising without music.

A follower can perfectly easily walk forwards (or backwards) in a curve around the leader, or she can step forwards and pivot to a side step and pivot again to another forward step, or she can walk to the side, pivot and go back, pivot and go side. These are only less natural if you find them so. But I doubt anyone would call them a giro.

I would say that it is self-evident that the forward, side, back, side way of walking is a pattern, otherwise the leader would have to lead every step separately (and he doesn't). Say giro and I know what you mean. Say

sandwich-parada-gancho combination

and we could very easily be in doubt as to what was intended.

 

[Temza]

Walking in a straight line is certainly a pattern: what makes it one is the predictability of what happens next.

yes, predictability is the key word.
if my leader walks in a straight line, I still can't predict what the next step will be and when he will change the direction. so walking in a straight line can't be a pattern.

if my leader does the pattern of basic 8 steps all the time, i can predict every step, so Basic 8 is a pattern.
if every sandwich is followed by a gancho, this a pattern.
a giro is not a pattern because I cannot predict every step: I can't predict when the leader stops it, changes the timing, or will lead me into forw-side-forw-side, rather than the more natural back-side-forw-side movement.

are we going in giros here?
i'm not trying to convince you that my understanding of the word pattern is better than yours. all I'm trying to do is to answer your question: why the discussion of the pattern of giro is not met with protestations, like other patterns are? my answer is: because IMO giro is not a pattern, or, if it is, it is a pattern in a class of its own and that's why it is given different treatment.

 

[Angel HI]

I'm baffled that so many leaders are interested in leading molinete in ways that are awkward for the follower because of some "rules" about how it's supposed to be.

Take out the word molinete and insert AT.

 

[opendoor]

I'm baffled that so many leaders are interested in leading molinete in ways that are awkward for the follower because of some "rules" about how it's supposed to be...

Take out the word molinete and insert AT.

Better take out the word leaders and put AT teachers in instead!

Right at the beginning of this thread I wrote about my dissent with an Argentine upon the molinete and about what he calls protocols.

 

[dchester]

Not at all... as long as you don't mind getting kicked to the curb.

Hmmm... Knowing what the follower is going to do so I can give her a good dance, vs getting kicked to the curb.

:bkick:


Decisions, decisions.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Hmmm... Knowing what the follower is going to do so I can give her a good dance, vs getting kicked to the curb.

:bkick:


Decisions, decisions.

Hey, no one ever said leading was easy...

 

[Dave Bailey]

I thought I'd replied to this... can't find it... OK, will re-type

Do you ever do sacadas when the follower is doing a mollinette (sp)?

Yes, occasionally, and enganches and barridas also.

If so, then the timing of the steps are pretty important (unless she doesn't mind occasionally getting kicked).

Yes, and in those situations I explicitly lead the relevant steps for the follower to allow me to add those variations in - for example, leading her to take a larger sidestep for an enganche.

 

[Dave Bailey]

I usually like this kind of training but for some reason not around the chair however I have done some of it. One teacher giving classes for ladies uses broomsticks instead and it suits me better. Same skill will grow!

Broomsticks are better as you can walk in a smaller circle, rather in a large box-shape. Also, you can look at the top of the broomstick rather than looking down at the floor - so the posture is better.

EDIT: PS I taught giros over the weekend, this thread really helped me clarify my thoughts on this topic

 

[UKDancer]

Yeah, I got confused on that one also.

I use "media luna" to mean back-side-forwards. Hell, everyone else makes up terms, why should I be worried about consistency?

I know this is 'old news' but I've just come across another reference to Media Luna that matches the usage in the DanceVision Instructional DVD series: http://www.tejastango.com/terminology.html#M

The very next definition (for Media Vuelta) matches what I had understood is normally called the Media Luna (if it's going to get named at all).

Media Luna — Half moon: A sweeping circular motion of the leg similar to a ronde in ballroom but always danced in contact with the floor, never lofted. Usually danced by the lady and often led with a sacada to the lady’s leg. May be used to bring the lady to an inside gancho.

Media Vuelta — Half turn, literally: Usually done when the man’s right foot and the lady’s left foot are free. The man steps forward outside right (3 of 8-count basic), leading the lady to step back left and collect, then side right across his center, and forward left around him as he shifts weight first to his center, then onto his right foot as he then pivots on both feet ½ turn with his partner, the lady pivoting on her left foot. Media Vuelta is used by itself to change direction or maneuver on the dance floor and as an entrance to many combinations.

DanceVision have that figure too - and I wonder whether that is because the material originates from a common source. The definitions are by Ed Loomis of Sacramento Tango.

 

[bordertangoman]

i got Media Luna from a Chicho video, but whether it was a simple description of where the woman was walking as opposed to a figure, I dont know.

 

[opendoor]

..The very next definition (for Media Vuelta) matches what I had understood is normally called the Media Luna (if it's going to get named at...

Interesting, for I thought the term Media Luna is of european origine. Some years ago I was eager to learn all these spanish words, but all argentinian or uruguayan teachers I met, never used, or knew the word molinete nor media luna.

By the way, the media vuelta is a half turn for the leader, while he does no pivot in the media luna.

 

[Dave Bailey]

I know this is 'old news' but I've just come across another reference to Media Luna that matches the usage in the DanceVision Instructional DVD series: http://www.tejastango.com/terminology.html#M

The very next definition (for Media Vuelta) matches what I had understood is normally called the Media Luna (if it's going to get named at all).



DanceVision have that figure too - and I wonder whether that is because the material originates from a common source. The definitions are by Ed Loomis of Sacramento Tango.

Aha! I knew I'd read about it before - here's an entire "Media Luna" thread