Giro or Molinette timing

[LoveTango]

There is one follower who can take giro with controlled centrifugal force and when she is hanging a little bit on me I can place her steps.

That's a very interesting way to describe it. Very vivid.

 

[bordertangoman]

what i like is dancing the molinette to vals and doing realtime barridas with no slowing down and curving my step around the ladies forward step..adds loads of dynamism to the movement...

 

[Zoopsia59]

Oh, I didn't make it clear. We do not circle around any chair. And we don't have to make any squares. Bigger or smaller steps as we please. I think it works particularly well for a person who is doing it for the first time if the other partner is a bit more experienced.

I think you could also make your students to practice linear motion first. Just the S-B-S-F toward one direction in straight line.

No, you were clear.. I was describing an exercise given in a workshop where we partnered up, but still had to do the chair in 4 even steps.

 

[Peaches]

Just going by the comments about the giro-in-a-square-around-a-chair exercise, am I the only one who found it extremely useful as an exercise?

I mean, I realize that it doesn't mimic reality much. But I found it very useful as a way to practice my balance while pivoting, for completing pivots fully, for pushing from one step to another, for developing control over each and every step and movement, for collecting fully between steps, for keeping my head up instead of looking down. Oh, and balance balance balance.

I can't be the only one who found it useful, can I?

 

[AndaBien]

Just going by the comments about the giro-in-a-square-around-a-chair exercise, am I the only one who found it extremely useful as an exercise?

I mean, I realize that it doesn't mimic reality much. But I found it very useful as a way to practice my balance while pivoting, for completing pivots fully, for pushing from one step to another, for developing control over each and every step and movement, for collecting fully between steps, for keeping my head up instead of looking down. Oh, and balance balance balance.

I can't be the only one who found it useful, can I?

I've done lots of technical drills, and this is one of the best for learning about axis, balance, collecting and dissociating hips from shoulders.

I liked doing it around a piece of paper on the floor. Then I got two pieces about 2 feet from each other, laid out with corners directed at each other, and danced figure-eights around them. That allowed me to alter the direction of the turn when changing from one page to the other. It was fun.

 

[dchester]

Wouldn't you know which she'd be coming out on once you led the first ocho? After all, its either going to be back-side-front, or front-side-back. It's either going to be right-left-right or left-right-left (foot for her). You are either going CW or CCW.

So it seems to me that as soon as you lead the beginning, you know exactly how she will end if you let it go through the sequence. Even if for some reason she does front-side-front, or back-side-back, it doesn't change which foot she finishes on and therefore whether you are in cross or parallel.

What would make a difference is how you move your own feet during her sequence.

Or am I missing something?

The thing I might have been talking about at the time (I think), is if the follower doesn't do it to the "default" (steps and rhythm), but rather does something else (like do 2 quicks in place of one slow).

If she does the "default" (or for that matter, something that is either predictable, or can be felt/determined), then I would say you are correct.

 

[Angel HI]

I think the turn of my torso tells what distance follower needs to go and how fast. The level of frame tells her how long steps to use. (a fast turn creates also long steps).

Completely agree with this (blue). Though, I have reservation of the second part. I find that taking steps which are too short is a typical problem for ladies in AT in general... especially in the molinete. (more about this below)

Just going by the comments about the giro-in-a-square-around-a-chair exercise, am I the only one who found it extremely useful as an exercise?

I can't be the only one who found it useful, can I?

No you are not. At the beginning, we teach the movement in a straight line (basically an american grapevine). Then, we have the student begin to simply curve it in order to go around the room or around a large circle. After some practice, we slow waaay down and take note of a very important thing that is far too often missed. In order to do this comfortably, let alone properly, one has to ocho (swivel, or pivot as you put it) between certain steps.

It is at this point that we have made them do giros in a square around a chair or sheet of bright red construction paper on the floor. It is a great exercise for teaching the ocho that is inherent in the molinete. Of course, we later show/tell tehm that it is better (and some argentines say, correctly) danced in 6 steps around the man rather than 4. But, at this point, they have perfect technique... molinete with ochos creating perfect giros.

It is important to point out that regardless of how perfect 'her' technique is, if 'he' is not maintaining the form that LL mentioned above, she is done for.

 

[Dave Bailey]

It matters to me what size steps she takes. If I want to do a larger turn and she takes small steps we don't get around as far as I'd wanted to.

Why? Surely if she chooses to take small steps, it's her responsibility to take them faster, so that she keeps up with the rotation of your chest?

The reverse is true also. I may want to lead only a small turn (for the sake of navigation), and I would not want her to take large steps in that situation.

Ditto.

The tempo of her steps makes a difference also. I may want to follow with a particular step, and if she finishes her steps too quickly it won't fit in with the timing. In any case, I like to feel my partner hit the music, rather than just blow right past it, as sometimes happens.

And I'm not saying you can't do that - just that you don't have to.

 

[Dave Bailey]

I had a teacher who taught us to practice this in pairs. We held each other's arms and rotated together in a circle. I think it worked great.

Yup, did that one too

 

[AndaBien]

Why? Surely if she chooses to take small steps, it's her responsibility to take them faster, so that she keeps up with the rotation of your chest?

I don't want her to take steps that are faster than the rhythm of the music. Taking more and faster steps is just not an answer for me.

...And I'm not saying you can't do that - just that you don't have to.

Well, there's really nothing I HAVE to do.

 

[AndaBien]

Why? Surely if she chooses to take small steps, it's her responsibility to take them faster, so that she keeps up with the rotation of your chest?

I'm still puzzled about this question. Are you saying that as long as she gets to the necessary spot at the necessary time, it makes no difference what her footwork is to get there? That there is no difference between her taking a bunch of small steps versus a few large steps that fit to the music?

 

[LadyLeader]

Completely agree with this (blue). Though, I have reservation of the second part. I find that taking steps which are too short is a typical problem for ladies in AT in general... especially in the molinete.

Yes you are right steps are often short. But when the follower is capable to take long steps it can happen. Followers are fantastic when calculating what to do in these situations - "leader is turning too fast; I can not fix this with short steps, not with normal steps either but if I take some extra large I will be in front of her/him again"

It happens mostly in waltz. A drawback is that followers tend to push harder for these steps so it starts slightly to remind a jump.

 

[LadyLeader]

Completely agree with this (blue). I find that taking steps which are too short is a typical problem for ladies in AT in general... especially in the molinete. (more about this below)

Followers do create adequate steps in caminata but there is problem when they need create the steps more individually.

A cornerstone in follower technique at beginner, intermediate level is to COLLECT and the inside muscles in thighs are used.

If you look a follower/leader in profile when both feet are on the floor and the step is open you can find a triangular formed by the two knees (think knees here) and the hip. Tense muscles create a smaller angle knee-hip-knee and you get smaller steps.

To create a larger angle and corresponding larger step you need to hang in the air for a while during your step. When your hip is on the highest point on your standing leg, let your hip and upperbody move forward 5-10 cm and after that let your foot hit the floor. If done with relaxed body you can open up the angle to the maximum and your step can be longer than your legs are.

 

[Dave Bailey]

I'm still puzzled about this question. Are you saying that as long as she gets to the necessary spot at the necessary time, it makes no difference what her footwork is to get there? That there is no difference between her taking a bunch of small steps versus a few large steps that fit to the music?

There is obviously a difference. But from the leader's point of view, I don't think it's a massive deal; giros allow followers to express musicality.

In reality, of course, it's not usually an issue - I'm just saying that if you don't explicitly lead steps (which in a giro, most of the time we don't), then the only responsibility the follower has is to follow the chest rotation. To an extent, how she does that is not that important.

But only to an extent, of course.

 

[UKDancer]

... from the leader's point of view, I don't think it's a massive deal; giros allow followers to express musicality.

I think this is what prompted my original question. Most of the (inexperienced) followers I dance with don't dance with any noticable musicality, and the giros I lead just end up like a washing machine's spin cycle. I might try slowing everything right down, and leading individual steps over two beats - that should stop 'em! Otherwise it's back to the drawing board for me.

My issue is to find something to lead when I can't move forward. Giros and variations on giros seem an obvious choice (certainly with much traditional music), but if the follower takes the opportunity to express themselves in quite the way that some of them do, I might try weight changes in place, instead ...