Giro or Molinette timing

[Dave Bailey]

As to the original question:

What determines the timing of the follower's movement in a giro or molinette pattern? With music having a simple clear beat or pulse, how best are the follower's steps related to that pulse? Several teachers advocate stepping with the pulse for the forward and following side steps, but quickening the pace for the back and following side step (SSQQ).

Spooky, I'm getting old. I remember asking this a few years back myself... Ah, here we are, "Molinete speed variations" (from 2007, good grief, have I really been on here that long?)

I guess my response now would be that it doesn't really matter.

In reality, the individual steps in the giro are almost never led - the lead for a molinete is the man rotating his chest. As long as the follower keeps up with that rotation, it doesn't matter what size of step she uses, the tempo of the step, or any decorations she wants to add to it.

That said, I think the steps where there's no pivot are easier to do quickly than the pivot steps, so there's a natural SSQQ rhythm to a giro pattern.

The danger in changing this tempo is that lots of followers take the same size steps for "QQ" bits as the "SS" bits - so they overtake the leader's chest. Another danger is that, once they start going quick, they carry on stepping quick all the time - and again accelerate past the leader's chest.

 

[Dave Bailey]

I originally learned to do this pattern in a square around a chair: our forward, side, back and side steps were all exactly the same length, and we had to maintain our distance from the chair throughout (which called for 1/2 turns on both pivots).

Yep, I taught that as a practice yesterday. And yes, it's a bit limited as an exercise, for that very reason. People are not chairs.

 

[opendoor]

..In reality, the individual steps in the giro are almost never led..

Hi Dave, to each his own. I do very often lead the follower to do only forward steps (instead of front-side-back crossing) within the molinete. Or I slower down the turning and lead slow steps in single time (not doubling). There are so much variations possible and common. I dont like the said paradigm of the two protocols.

 

[bordertangoman]

ah if you have danced with Mila that overtaking is delicious she really travels around the man and gives energy bak.

 

[dchester]

Hi Dave, to each his own. I do very often lead the follower to do only forward steps (instead of front-side-back crossing) within the molinete. Or I slower down the turning and lead slow steps in single time (not doubling). There are so much variations possible and common. I dont like the said paradigm of the two protocols.

The way I was taught the concept of the default, the leader still had the option of overriding the default and leading it however he saw fit. So that philosophy would work with you choosing to lead it differently.

Occasionally, I will lead it with all slows, and on rare occasions all quicks.

 

[pwpulto]

follower wearing swimming costume

However, I would probably prefer that the follower was not wearing a swimming costume, but that's just me being awkward.

Why not UKDancer? Just put on your swimfins and it will work out fine!
pw

 

[AndaBien]

...In reality, the individual steps in the giro are almost never led - the lead for a molinete is the man rotating his chest. As long as the follower keeps up with that rotation, it doesn't matter what size of step she uses, the tempo of the step, or any decorations she wants to add to it...

I almost never lead those steps, but I do like to have the option to lead differently, if I'm ever so inclined.

It matters to me what size steps she takes. If I want to do a larger turn and she takes small steps we don't get around as far as I'd wanted to. The reverse is true also. I may want to lead only a small turn (for the sake of navigation), and I would not want her to take large steps in that situation.

The tempo of her steps makes a difference also. I may want to follow with a particular step, and if she finishes her steps too quickly it won't fit in with the timing. In any case, I like to feel my partner hit the music, rather than just blow right past it, as sometimes happens.

One of my favorite partners is quite short, but she can really turn a molinete, which makes them really fun.

 

[dchester]

I almost never lead those steps, but I do like to have the option to lead differently, if I'm ever so inclined.

It matters to me what size steps she takes. If I want to do a larger turn and she takes small steps we don't get around as far as I'd wanted to. The reverse is true also. I may want to lead only a small turn (for the sake of navigation), and I would not want her to take large steps in that situation.

The tempo of her steps makes a difference also. I may want to follow with a particular step, and if she finishes her steps too quickly it won't fit in with the timing. In any case, I like to feel my partner hit the music, rather than just blow right past it, as sometimes happens.

One of my favorite partners is quite short, but she can really turn a molinete, which makes them really fun.

I want to know whether I am coming out of the turn in cross system or parallel. That's why I like to lead them (at least minimally), or at least have it predictable what she's doing. You also don't want to throw in a sacada when she's suddenly decided to do a couple quick steps when you weren't expecting it.

 

[Subliminal]

I guess my response now would be that it doesn't really matter.

In reality, the individual steps in the giro are almost never led - the lead for a molinete is the man rotating his chest. As long as the follower keeps up with that rotation, it doesn't matter what size of step she uses, the tempo of the step, or any decorations she wants to add to it.

Well. Agree and disagree. My current teacher has told me that with her, it just isn't necessary to lead each step. She knows what I'm asking. Instead, she has me focus on leading the timing. The way we practiced this was with waltz. She would ask me to lead a turn where I made her back step hit on the 2 of a measure, then next rotation backstep hits on the 3 of a measure.

I guess it really depends on how musical the follower is and how she likes the lead. Another follower I know who is pretty advanced likes it when the lead for each step is ultra clear. My teacher is more minimalist... she's all about getting the idea of the movement across as simply as possible so you can focus on the music.

 

[LoveTango]

One teacher I had used a rotating bar stool and didn't try to make followers dance on a perfect 4 step square. Also, the follower can hold the back of the stool, which means she doesn't have to do the exercise looking down at the chair. I'm all for anything that gets people to stop looking down, and not all that fond of exercises that encourage or require looking down.

I had a teacher who taught us to practice this in pairs. We held each other's arms and rotated together in a circle. I think it worked great.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I want to know whether I am coming out of the turn in cross system or parallel. That's why I like to lead them (at least minimally),

Wouldn't you know which she'd be coming out on once you led the first ocho? After all, its either going to be back-side-front, or front-side-back. It's either going to be right-left-right or left-right-left (foot for her). You are either going CW or CCW.

So it seems to me that as soon as you lead the beginning, you know exactly how she will end if you let it go through the sequence. Even if for some reason she does front-side-front, or back-side-back, it doesn't change which foot she finishes on and therefore whether you are in cross or parallel.

What would make a difference is how you move your own feet during her sequence.

Or am I missing something?

 

[Zoopsia59]

I had a teacher who taught us to practice this in pairs. We held each other's arms and rotated together in a circle. I think it worked great.

I had one who had us work together in pairs, holding each other's arms and going around the chair in a square together. (as if the whole chair thing isn't awkward enough!)

Personally, I think without the chair is better for this... it means you have to adapt to a moving partner, like in real life, rather than have both of you adapting to a stationary chair. The point however, was to remind us to keep our chests facing the chair, which you had to do if you were connected to someone on the other side of it.

Maybe for my next class, just to be new and innovative , I'll have 4 people go around the chair together. Think of how hard THAT would be!

 

[LadyLeader]

I almost never lead those steps, but I do like to have the option to lead differently, if I'm ever so inclined.

It matters to me what size steps she takes. If I want to do a larger turn and she takes small steps we don't get around as far as I'd wanted to. The reverse is true also. I may want to lead only a small turn (for the sake of navigation), and I would not want her to take large steps in that situation.

The tempo of her steps makes a difference also. I may want to follow with a particular step, and if she finishes her steps too quickly it won't fit in with the timing. In any case, I like to feel my partner hit the music, rather than just blow right past it, as sometimes happens.

One of my favorite partners is quite short, but she can really turn a molinete, which makes them really fun.

I do not lead the giro either - only if I want some variations I lead them.

I think the turn of my torso tells what distance follower needs to go and how fast. The level of frame tells her how long steps to use. (a fast turn creates also long steps)

However it is quite difficult to get different sizes for the steps. Most of the followers are busy with the turning steps and keeping the leader-distance correct - changes on the frame levels are just ignored.

But it should work here as everywhere else - In the beginning of our dance we get a shared understanding what is the normal level of the frame and how our normal steps are. If the leader lowers the frame the follower responce should be longer steps; if leader raises the frame shorter steps.

If a follower and I are thinking differently about music puts us in a difficult situation. Usually I start to 'march' according to my hearing; keeping my heels in the same place but moving my toes. It usually coordinates our steps. There is one follower who can take giro with controlled centrifugal force and when she is hanging a little bit on me I can place her steps.

 

[LoveTango]

I had one who had us work together in pairs, holding each other's arms and going around the chair in a square together. (as if the whole chair thing isn't awkward enough!)

Personally, I think without the chair is better for this... it means you have to adapt to a moving partner, like in real life, rather than have both of you adapting to a stationary chair. The point however, was to remind us to keep our chests facing the chair, which you had to do if you were connected to someone on the other side of it.

Maybe for my next class, just to be new and innovative , I'll have 4 people go around the chair together. Think of how hard THAT would be!

Oh, I didn't make it clear. We do not circle around any chair. And we don't have to make any squares. Bigger or smaller steps as we please. I think it works particularly well for a person who is doing it for the first time if the other partner is a bit more experienced.

I think you could also make your students to practice linear motion first. Just the S-B-S-F toward one direction in straight line.

 

[LoveTango]

Oh, I didn't make it clear. We do not circle around any chair. And we don't have to make any squares. Bigger or smaller steps as we please. I think it works particularly well for a person who is doing it for the first time if the other partner is a bit more experienced.

I think you could also make your students to practice linear motion first. Just the S-B-S-F toward one direction in straight line.

Further, if one of the partner is assigned the leader's role, they can also play with timing. I think.