Giro or Molinette timing

Yes UKDancer, when I learned to dance it was usual to call this part of a giro "media luna". But maybe I'm becoming a "milonguero viejo"...

regards,
PW
 
What is meant by Media Luna?

UKDancer said:
Perhaps 'back half' is the wrong expression - particularly given that the pattern can start or finish on any step. I mean the steps 'between' the pivots, where effectively, the follower is stepping in a U shape, with little or no turn.
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I never thought that there could be confusion on what a media luna would be. On YouTube (search: zotto media luna) the fragment of the Osvaldo Zotto instruction videos show it the way I always had it in mind...
 
pwpulto said:
I never thought that there could be confusion on what a media luna would be. On YouTube (search: zotto media luna) the fragment of the Osvaldo Zotto instruction videos show it the way I always had it in mind...
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Yes, that's it (as I understand it). However, I would probably prefer that the follower was not wearing a swimming costume, but that's just me being awkward. The clip was rather spoilt, for me, with the early reference to 678 of the basic. Tango has no basic step. ;)
 
I learned that, by default, the back-side portion of the molinete were quick steps and the front-side portion were slow steps. If the leader wished to have some other timing he would lead that timing.

IME, lots of followers tend to rush the QQ portion of the step, which makes it difficult for the leader to synchronize his steps with hers.

I like the idea of creating an opening for the follower to go into, rather than pushing her into a movement.

I've never heard the term media luna used at all in AT, only ragtime and ballroom.
 
UKDancer said:
What determines the timing of the follower's movement in a giro or molinette pattern? With music having a simple clear beat or pulse, how best are the follower's steps related to that pulse? Several teachers advocate stepping with the pulse for the forward and following side steps, but quickening the pace for the back and following side step (SSQQ).

Who decides: leader or follower, and if leader, how does he control the follower's movement to achieve that (or any other) timing? Lots of music would call for a very free movement, but I am thinking in terms of, say, D'Arienzo etc., where there is a clear pulse.
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IMO, the leader decides. So now the question is, how is his intention communicated.

I've heard a few variations on this, but at the end of the day, it's the followers job to try and keep up with the leader's chest. The leader need to practice, to get the timing down on how to keep just slightly ahead of the follower, so she knows she needs to keep stepping. If the leader rotates a little faster (and the timing is good enough), the follower will know she needs to take quick steps. Some people teach the concept of either "pulling" or opening up with the arm that is in the direction of the turn, to help clarify the lead. I know other leaders may also "help" by using the other arm to push, and while it may help clarify the lead, it often detracts from the comfort of the lead for some followers (so use at your own risk). Basically, once the followers get good enough, they can get the timing simply from your rotation.

Also, many teach the concept of a "default" timing, that will be used unless the leader makes it clear that he's doing a different timing. I like this method. As I think others have already mentioned, the "default" timing is quick-quick on (or after, depending on how you think of it) the back and subsequent side steps. The front and subsequent side steps are done to the slow beats. Another way of thinking of it, is when more of pivoting is needed, it's a slow, when not a lot of pivoting is needed, they are quick.
 
Peaches said:
Where did this "rule" come from? I strongly disagree. The hand is part of the embrace, it completes it and creates that held and "cradled" feeling. No hand on the back?!!? The mind boggles.
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Let your mind boggle and enjoy dancing ( and perhaps together sometime?) :cool:
 
Peaches said:
ETA: One time Subliminal tried running a little experiment with me, which I thought was interesting. He started leading molinetes...and sometimes he would actively direct the timing, but other times he never indicated that. When he didn't indicate anything, I did what felt most natural to me...and it had a very particular rhythm to it. (don't remember what it was, unfortunately). Point is, there is a timing which will probably happen naturally for her, but you can alter that.
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Yep, I think your "default" was QQS on the Back-Side-Front. Which is true for a lot of followers. But if I actively lead the step, you could do whichever. :)

So here's my take on the subject. I realized something important when I first started learning to follow. If the leader is deliberately leading every step of the giro, then the timing can be whatever.

But... if the leader is leading the giro by beginning the pattern and "opening" his chest/arm to continue it, then things change depending on how far away the follower is in the embrace. I can't stress that last point hard enough. The farther away the follower is, the bigger her circle has to be, and the more pivot she has to do. The hardest step is the back step, and unless she is made of rubber, she will not be able to cover as much ground with her back step as her front step. It follows that if the leader is leading each step with an even pressure and keeping a constant turn, she will feel like he is rushing her on the back step and take it as a double time movement. In other words, if the leader isn't very deliberate, he can lead her to take the back step faster without even realizing it.

It follows that dancers of close-embrace apilado have it much easier controlling the timing. The follower does not have to cover as much distance on her back step, and is most likely using crossing-ochos anyway.

So it's kind of a chicken and egg question. Which came first? Did the quick-quick-slow timing come about because it was a natural movement and dancers just started using it? Or did it come because some teachers realized it was easier for the follows and deliberately taught it that way?

ETA: I think this might be what you were saying in the second post BTM, right? The step is longer.
 
Subliminal said:
Or did it come because some teachers realized it was easier for the follows and deliberately taught it that way?

ETA: I think this might be what you were saying in the second post BTM, right? The step is longer.
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I was taught it and I teach it, because the back step is longer.
 
bordertangoman said:
I was taught it and I teach it, because the back step is longer.
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Do you mean that the back step takes longer to execute, because of the need to pivot fully before moving, or that the step itself is longer when you take it?

I originally learned to do this pattern in a square around a chair: our forward, side, back and side steps were all exactly the same length, and we had to maintain our distance from the chair throughout (which called for 1/2 turns on both pivots).
 
UKDancer said:
What determines the timing of the follower's movement in a giro or molinette pattern?
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When the leader wants to lead the timing of the movement, he uses his chest and keeps it just in front (in terms of alignment) of the followers.

When the leader follows the followers chest, her chest will be just in front of the leaders and she will determine the timing.

In both case this will based upon the timing in the music.
 
UKDancer said:
I originally learned to do this pattern in a square around a chair: our forward, side, back and side steps were all exactly the same length, and we had to maintain our distance from the chair throughout (which called for 1/2 turns on both pivots).
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Yeah, a lot of us probably learned that. At least in the last workshop I took that used it, the teacher admitted that it was an exercise only, in order to encourage followers to pivot fully, be aware of their distance from the leader, measure their step length, be aware of placement etc.

The truth is that hardly anyone gets all the way back to where they started in a single side, back, side, forward sequence. It usually takes (at least) two patterns to go 360. Not to mention the fact that many leaders take up more than an 18" square area, which means the follower's steps would have to be VERY long to get around him in only 4 steps. Even the leaders don't typically expect me to go 360 in one S,B,S,F sequence!

One teacher I had used a rotating bar stool and didn't try to make followers dance on a perfect 4 step square. Also, the follower can hold the back of the stool, which means she doesn't have to do the exercise looking down at the chair. I'm all for anything that gets people to stop looking down, and not all that fond of exercises that encourage or require looking down.
 
opendoor said:
RH is proscribed, for you dont touch the lady´s back with your bare palm but whith your forearm in TA..
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as once described by a Buddhist monk; the marigold position is an alternative to the lotus position and is any way of sitting that is comfortable; same applies to AT.....
 
UKDancer said:
That's interesting. I've never heard anyone refer to that segment of a giro in such terms unless it was being danced as an action on its own. Christie Cote & George Garcia's DVD series for DanceVision use the name 'media luna' for a completely different action, which I would call a planeo, but I have always understood it as the 'backward half' of a giro.
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Yeah, I got confused on that one also.

I use "media luna" to mean back-side-forwards. Hell, everyone else makes up terms, why should I be worried about consistency? :)
 
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