Going Along for the Ride?

[Pryn]

The topic of "going along for the ride" has come up in another thread within this forum and has spurred a few questions for me.

Based on my current understanding, this phenomenon seems to occur most often when - in partner dance - a more skillful dancer does their part (either lead or follow) and concurrently helps their less experienced partner by dancing in a way that fills their partner's skill gaps so that the couple can dance closer to the higher dancer's level.

I'm curious...
- How do you define "going along for the ride"?
- What does "going along for the ride" look like and feel like to you in your dance stye of choice?
- How does someone recognize if they are being taken for a ride vs dancing on their own merit?
- What tips can you give to help someone be able to dance their part better so that this form of assistive dancing (borrowing language from @fiesta0618) isn't necessary?

 

[opendoor]

..I'm curious...
- What does "going along for the ride" look like and feel like to you in your dance stye..

In the tango community, this is common practice. However, the wording is different: it's called: making her look good! Provided the leader is the more experienced partner.

In this case, the leader limits himselve to a vocabulary that is 100% leadable. And now the psychological aspect begins. I'm not referring to practice settings, but to the real life thing: social dancing at a tango party. The inexperienced follower is very nervous; she can't stand a pause on the dance floor while the music plays. She anticipates, takes unled steps, or backleads. In such a case, I whisper in her ear: "Shhht, trust me. I'm going to remotely control your legs now". Also, pauses, holding still, breathing, and posing also is part of the dance. After the dance, her classmates will run up to her, congratulate her, and say, "Wow, you danced so elegantly!" The secret simply is: less is more when it is consciously celebrated!

 

[fiesta0618]

- How do you define "going along for the ride"?

I would define it much as you do in your post--it is an extreme case of one dancer appropriating some of the responsibilities of their partner. The most basic (and also extreme) version of that being "hold them up so that their posture and frame looks right, even though they are about as toned as overcooked spaghetti."

- What does "going along for the ride" look like and feel like to you in your dance stye of choice?

I don't think there is one single look or feel to it, because the carrier-appropriated responsibilities vary between couples.

Visibly, though, one thing that I notice frequently in carrying situations is a visible energy mismatch. If you look closely, you can tell if the energy in a couple is not being supplied in equal parts by both dancers. That can be an indicator that there is some form of carrying going on.

Feelings-wise, the insidious thing about being carried is that you *cannot* feel it directly. It just feels like an amazing, super-comfortable dance! You can only identify it by contrast with other dances, but even then it's all too easy to rationalize that away as a natural quirk of dancing with different people. Because folks tend to carry (or not) consistently.

On the other side, if you are experienced enough, it is not too difficult to feel it if you are the carrier. You know what the responsibilities are, and you know what they feel like when fulfilled by an experienced partner; so you can tell when one of them is NOT being fulfilled, and you adjust slightly so that the lack does not become a limitation in the moment. But that's a massive IF. An inexperienced dancer might have no awareness that they are carrying their partner, because "that's just how it feels." You can even get crazy scenarios in early Am-Am where two dancers mutually carry one another, because they each have a deficiency that the other is desperately trying to cover.

This is one of the main benefits of Pro-Am. The student will (or should!) never be one of those unconscious carriers, and the chances are high that the pro will be well-aware of whether and how much they are carrying.

(contrary to common Am-Am belief, the answers are not always "yes" and "a lot." There may be some at the outset, because it can be pedagogically advantageous to allow a student to focus only on one thing at a time, and when a student has no ingrained good habits, some amount of carrying can assist that focus. But it isn't sustainable; carrying can be very hard on the carrier's body, and is a long-term learning hindrance to the carried. I've not met many well-seasoned pros willing to carry a student in any significant way--it seems to be a thing that dumb, plucky newbie pros do. Until their first major injury.)

- How does someone recognize if they are being taken for a ride vs dancing on their own merit?

I think I kinda answered that already: you *can't* know it just by feeling it, except in contrast with other dances where you are not carried. But there are a couple of yellow flags I would watch for:

• If I am only comfortable with one partner and no others--even other highly-skilled pros--that partner is probably assisting me in some way.
• If I cannot move comfortably alone the same way I do in partnership, my partner is probably assisting me in some way.
  (Not talking about choreo or timing details here; just the sensation of basic movement.)

Both of these have other possible causes besides being carried, but when they appear, I would definitely want to investigate further to be certain.

- What tips can you give to help someone be able to dance their part better so that this form of assistive dancing isn't necessary?

There are several things I would say here, which go in different directions.

First. If you are in an unequal partnership where it is possible you are being consciously carried, you talk to your partner to make it clear that you do not want that assist. Because as long as they are appropriating one of your responsibilities, you cannot fulfill it yourself. They first need to stop, so that you can feel what is missing and make moves to supply it.

Second. If you are in a more-equal and less-experienced partnership where it is possible that one or both of you is an unconscious carrier, get a professional third party to evaluate the couple and determine if everyone is staying in-bounds. It might be hard for your regular coach to see, as it is a state of affairs that can develop slowly. (this happened to me about a year ago, and it was a critical discovery)

Finally. To stave off the general risk of being someone who needs carrying...do tons of solo practice. That is one of the main reasons it is recommended by so many people. Can't be carried when there is no partner to carry you!

To make an analogy, great partner dancing is like 2+2=5. Prerequisite to that is both parties producing a 2 (the nebulous extra 1 comes from partnering skills). Solo work goes a long way to help you be certain that you are indeed generating a full 2.

 

[opendoor]

..To stave off the general risk of being someone who needs carrying...do tons of solo practice..

I respectfully take the liberty of disagreeing politely: the first step simply is to master the lead-following technique as a fundamental prerequisite for dancing in general.

 

[fiesta0618]

I respectfully take the liberty of disagreeing politely: the first step simply is to master the lead-following technique as a fundamental prerequisite for dancing in general.

Lead-follow technique is mostly about clear communication, is it not? If so, then in this context, I would say it serves a different purpose: it allows the couple to easily negotiate the balance of responsibilities. Those may well be unequal, if the dancers have unequal individual skill. For social dance, that's fine--all that matters is that folks feel good and walk away happy. There is no need to pursue a theoretical-ideal 2+2=5, in a technical or aesthetic sense. There's no audience to appreciate it, so what's the point?

(ETA: I would also argue that squeezing out the last 1 requires long-term work with a single partner, so that you develop a maximally-efficient personal dialect and your partner's actions are as familiar and second-nature as your own. With rotating social partners, the best you can expect is 2+2=4. But at that point, 1+3=4 reaches the same result, so who cares how exactly it happened and who did what? It was an awesome dance!)

But being a good lead or a good follow has little to do with individual technical skill. One can be communicative but awkward, or "deaf-mute" and technically brilliant. I've danced with both. Lead-follow practice helps develop communicative, while solo practice helps develop technically brilliant.

 

[opendoor]

Lead-follow technique is mostly about clear communication, is it not?.. There's no audience to appreciate it, so what's the point?

In social dancing there is a lot of audience. And this audience isn't anonymous. Its your family in a way! You are dependent on this community.

..Lead-follow practice helps develop communicative, while solo practice helps develop technically brilliant.

I don't disagree with that. But it doesn't relate in any way to the question of the opener.

 

[Pryn]

I appreciate the dialogue that's starting and some of the insights coming out are blowing my mind.

Feelings-wise, the insidious thing about being carried is that you *cannot* feel it directly. It just feels like an amazing, super-comfortable dance! You can only identify it by contrast with other dances, but even then it's all too easy to rationalize that away as a natural quirk of dancing with different people. Because folks tend to carry (or not) consistently.

The uncertainty of this is a bit unsettling to me. It makes me question - did we actually have a great dance with really good dance chemistry or was it a ruse?

And is the person I'm dancing with so used to carrying people that when I require a little less carrying than some of their other partners, do they think I'm holding my own?

For the record, I know (as a ballroom newbie) that I am going for the ride with some Pros and higher level AMs, I get the feeling that they would still give me a thrilling dance around the room if I were a chair. (Yes. I've seen a ballroom training video of just that.) But, I'd like to believe that I hold my own with the students I've danced with and the lower level AMs. (Wishful thinking? Hmm...things to ponder...)

I have been asked by a few pros to dance with their students to try to diagnose their strengths and weaknesses. I think its because I'm a decent follow, who doesn't know enough yet to cover any mistakes or appropriate responsibilities. [Read: We're just going to stumble or orient in the wrong direction if I get a bad lead.]

Lots of food for thought on this one...

Finally. To stave off the general risk of being someone who needs carrying...do tons of solo practice. That is one of the main reasons it is recommended by so many people. Can't be carried when there is no partner to carry you!

This is a hard pill for this ballroom newbie to swallow. I practice like crazy alone but when someone is in front of me (in hold) - everything feels so different. My balance has to adjust from my imaginary partner to someone real. I can't place my feet where I trained them. I have to modify my imagined connection points to their body. Nothing about it feels the same as solo practice to me. I feel like my best training happens with a person.

But, there has been many generations of dancers before me who have figured this out, so I will lean into the solo work mindset and try to trust the process.

 

[Pryn]

In this case, the leader limits himselve to a vocabulary that is 100% leadable... The inexperienced follower is very nervous; she can't stand a pause on the dance floor while the music plays. She anticipates, takes unled steps, or backleads. In such a case, I whisper in her ear: "Shhht, trust me... The secret simply is: less is more when it is consciously celebrated!

That makes complete sense to me... the leader makes the deliberate decision to stick with only 100% leadable figures.

 

[Brummbaer]

In this case, the leader limits himselve to a vocabulary that is 100% leadable. And now the psychological aspect begins

What he said +

As a leader you choose the vocabulary the follower uses. With an advanced (or intermediate) follower, that doesn't matter too much. But, if you can't lead a novice, you're not a very 'advanced' leader. You try things (e.g. ocho cortado). If it doesn't work, you convert to something else. Can they even do a giro (molinete)? You can have a great dance just walking to the music! You don't have to show off your 'hotshot' moves. Your intention is to give your partner a great dance.

And I never whisper in her ear!

Turn it round, and maybe it's an opportunity for me to lead some 'advanced' moves which I know the follower knows.

 

[Bailango]

The topic of "going along for the ride" has come up in another thread within this forum and has spurred a few questions for me.

Based on my current understanding, this phenomenon seems to occur most often when - in partner dance - a more skillful dancer does their part (either lead or follow) and concurrently helps their less experienced partner by dancing in a way that fills their partner's skill gaps so that the couple can dance closer to the higher dancer's level.

I'm curious...
- How do you define "going along for the ride"?
- What does "going along for the ride" look like and feel like to you in your dance stye of choice?
- How does someone recognize if they are being taken for a ride vs dancing on their own merit?
- What tips can you give to help someone be able to dance their part better so that this form of assistive dancing (borrowing language from @fiesta0618) isn't necessary?

Firstly I have never heard the term going along for the ride in the context you mentioned. If I had heard someone use it, I would have assumed a partner that is putting no effort to improve the dance and going through the motions. Or in business terms someone that shows no vested interest in dance partnership.

Like @opendoor mentioned it is common in social dancing to dance to what your partner is capable of. Push them a little off their comfort zone but not to the point they feel any discomfort.

If I were to restrict myself to only social dancing I will disagree with “carrying” as described by @fiesta0618. Conceptually as described I can see it within the partnerships like pro-am or am-am. Basically where the partners don’t change and you have to maximize as a couple to compete.

My experience stems from social dancing. Of the follower not equal in skill level and less experienced than me, I will try to dance in a way that brings the best out of her. As is usually said “make her look good” or “make her dance her best”. Over the years I had a number of followers from first day beginners to those dancing for a decade gushing after the dance. Either to me or to (common) friends. Due to lead-follow dynamics, it is easier for a leader to bring the best out of less skilled follower. A higher skill follower can also make a leader look better than he is. It does happen. Just not as frequently. There are times you watch a follower with a good leader. She looks good. You ask her. And you start thinking, is this the same follower, I thought she was good!

It is more than dancing to the level of the partner recognizing their limitations. Like said above restrict the vocabulary. But a good skilled leader can also make follower follow a figure she is not otherwise capable of.

I think you dance salsa and are probably familiar with 360. As a leader I can lead any follower into 360. However it is also one of those rare cases that fits the definition of “carrying” (when the follower is at loss what to do) as described by @fiesta0618. Then too most followers including beginners don’t need to be carried to do 360. On the other hand if we talk about simple outside turn type move, there is little leader can do to help or compensate if follower can’t do it properly. Many beginner followers will end a mile away from where they should be, or turn too late, or turn too early - as a leader you can easily adjust to that and lead the follower into next move without follower ever realizing how off she was. Good follower with an inexperienced leader can correspondingly do a perfect turn or a spin, despite leader not able to lead it. You keep calibrating noting where the partner is weak and try to avoid leading the partner in those type of moves. Since social dancing is all improvisational, it is easy to dance to the strength of your partner and avoid weaknesses, especially as a leader. Partner wouldn’t realise that you decided to only improvise the dances by selecting the moves that you are not weak at. There can be millions of combinations and sequences using same set of basic figures when social dancing. Eliminating or not dancing a figure makes no difference. I can dance selecting only three or four moves/figures. Or I can dance using a dozen moves/figures. It doesn’t impact the quality of the dance or how partner felt about it.

To answer your question of can you tell - if dancing with a better skilled partner is making you dance better, you might feel like everything is happening perfect. But you wouldn’t know they are making you do it or making it happen despite your handicaps. It is the case of you don’t know what you don’t know.

 

[opendoor]

..Can they even do a giro (molinete)?

The molinete traditionally belongs to the learned stuff, I referred to the leadable vocabulary. But of course, I can entirely lead a molinete as well.

..Your intention is to give your partner a great dance.

My focus was slightly different: it was, "make her look good!" Looking good is the crucial prerequisite for dances to eventually "feel good", later on. The bottleneck in social dancing is simply to get more often on the dance floor. And for that to happen, advanced leaders first need to acknowledge that this newbie dances acceptably well and won't through you off axis.

..And I never whisper in her ear!

Perhaps you should also switch to whispering instead of talking loudly to her on the dance floor

 

[Pryn]

My focus was slightly different: it was, "make her look good!" Looking good is the crucial prerequisite for dances to eventually "feel good", later on.

@opendoor, I appreciate you sharing your observations and experiences. If I may ask, I wonder why you feel is looking good is a prerequisite to feeling good?

In my social dance experience, I've had some really fun dances that felt good but didn't look amazing to the audience.

To answer your question of can you tell - if dancing with a better skilled partner is making you dance better, you might feel like everything is happening perfect. But you wouldn’t know they are making you do it or making it happen despite your handicaps. It is the case of you don’t know what you don’t know.

Yikes! The joy of being new to a dance form. You don't know what you don't know. (I've heard this a lot recently.)

I desparately want to believe it is possible to know - at least sometimes - if you're going for a ride...

In social dancing, I think of it as - If I were freestyling alone, could I have done that move? Or, if it was unfamiliar to me - could I repeat it without that same leader?

I ask myself these questions often... even in my ballroom journey. If the answer is "no", then my lead likely had to put in some extra work to get me through it. If the answer is "yes", then I was surmise that I was probably managing my weight changes, space, and timing to the music well enough - my leader was able to lead without carrying me.

Not sure if that's a 100% true corollary but I hate feeling like I can't know if I'm actually following or being carried.

How can one get better, if you don't know it's an issue?

 

[opendoor]

...If I may ask, I wonder why you feel looking good is a prerequisite to feeling good? ...In my social dance experience, I've had some really fun dances that felt good but didn't look amazing to the audience...

Of course, that exists too. But it's a completely different animal. You've brought up for discussion the topic of "going along for a ride". And in my opinion, this isn't about fulfilling or enjoyable dances from the subjective perspective of the less experienced dance partner. Its about presenting the less experienced dance partner to the public (f.i. the social dance community) by a far more experienced dancer. In this case, the external perspective is central (somewhat comparable to DWTS). The internal perspective might even feel awful, but the audience only sees the finished product and is amazed. It may be my take and YMMD.

 

[Dancer Bob]

Socially, something like fiesta0618 and Bailango said. I won't refuse to dance with anyone who can keep time, but there are a huge number with woeful technique. For example, on a basic switch turn, instead of transferring weight to RF on 2, stepping back so she now ends up two steps away facing the far wall. So I don't really move my feet except to adjust alignment. Or in Standard, where she refuses to dance in closed position (almost universal now) but will only move her feet a few inches. All I can do is shuffle around and barely turn. So you could say I just "go through the motions" or "be along for the ride". It's not quite the same thing as restricting yourself to the figures your partner knows.

 

[Greybeard]

I respectfully take the liberty of disagreeing politely: the first step simply is to master the lead-following technique as a fundamental prerequisite for dancing in general.

Solo practice is good for balance and reach (movement distance). It also helps with remembering what is possible (a follower can freeze up if lead something she has no concept of). When getting more advanced it helps with precision.