grounded vs heavy. ungrounded vs light

[Madahlia]

All this talk about exactly what the feet and legs should be doing seems a bit misleading to me. Check out this article about how dancers can ground themselves better

http://balletjazztapdance.suite101.com/article.cfm/how-to-be-more-grounded-in-dance-movements

Although largely aimed at ballet and jazz dancers I think it is very applicable to AT. Briefly - it's down to relaxing the legs (keeping the knees soft), using the core and being aware of the floor with your feet.

The wobbliest dancers are usually noticeably not fulfilling at least one of these requirements, IMO.

I agree that pressing into the floor helps me to be more grounded - even though it is just an illusion. However, I think the act of trying to press into the floor causes unconscious engaging of the core muscles - which does the trick!

Personally, I think I would add good posture to the list, as well.

 

[Steve Pastor]

no matter how hard you think you press with a foot onto the floor you cannot increase the pressure on the floor. You cannot conjure up more weight from nowhere, you weigh what you weigh

You are right about this, of course.
But...
"Pressing your foot into the floor" makes you more aware of HOW you interact with it: how you can be "attached" to it, and how you can use it to move yourself.

P.S. Also, "momentum" and "force" aren't "weight" (I don't think) , but when we land a step ...

 

[Steve Pastor]

The wobbliest dancers are usually noticeably not fulfilling at least one of these requirements, IMO

And then there is the basic skill of brushing the knees, which keeps you on what I have always thought of as a "tight axis", both for walking and for turns.

 

[dchester]

Originally Posted by JohnEm
You know, no matter how hard you think you press with a foot onto the floor you cannot increase the pressure on the floor. You cannot conjure up more weight from nowhere, you weigh what you weigh.

This misses the point imo. There's pressing and there's pressing, they are not the same thing. Just like there's massaging and there's massaging. The times when I have felt my foot enter the floor was also the times when I felt my feet massaging and being massaged by the floor. Not everything is explainable by engineering and physics.:bkick:

Physics actually can explain it. First, John is incorrect (or imprecise) about what he said. Weight is the force that your body pushes down as a result of gravity. But one can press down and increase that force (briefly), and if you do it hard and quick enough, you will jump as a result of the higher force.

The amount of force on the floor is not a constant, but does vary (similar to your massage analogy). As you move around, the amount of force keeps increasing and decreasing, and the floor will match the force back at you. What you can't do is maintain an additional force on the ground for a long period of time (more than a couple seconds). This is also why you need to be still when weighing yourself on a scale, because when you are moving, the force on the scale is changing.

 

[Zoopsia59]

This is also why you need to be still when weighing yourself on a scale, because when you are moving, the force on the scale is changing.

No, dear... this is exactly why you should move around on a scale...

(then choose the number you like best from all given results )

 

[JohnEm]

Physics actually can explain it. First, John is incorrect (or imprecise) about what he said. Weight is the force that your body pushes down as a result of gravity. But one can press down and increase that force (briefly), and if you do it hard and quick enough, you will jump as a result of the higher force.

The amount of force on the floor is not a constant, but does vary (similar to your massage analogy). As you move around, the amount of force keeps increasing and decreasing, and the floor will match the force back at you. What you can't do is maintain an additional force on the ground for a long period of time (more than a couple seconds). This is also why you need to be still when weighing yourself on a scale, because when you are moving, the force on the scale is changing.

Here I agree. But to a certain extent you are taking my comment out of context as Steve was indicating a static press rather than a dynamic one. Yes of course add momentum/kinetic energy and everything changes in that the landing force is higher and dies away to a force only resulting from your weight. If you then bend the knees, lowering the body and spring of course the pressure changes again.

Which I suppose leads me on to the topic I wasn't going to discuss - grounding. It requires stability, posture, tone, balance and control.
For a man, walk like a man with straight legs and unlocked knees. Connect with the floor as if you mean it by landing the whole foot cleanly. The dynamism for the landing gives the appearance and the feel of a good grounding - and yes increased pressure, temporarily. Create a new axis with surety to give the lady confidence that she can rely on you. This is milonguero tango grounding.
And to link it with another thread, it's the straight legs that gives the milonguero walk its gently undulating cadence.

 

[jerseydancer]

See how tension and freedom work together minimalistically, structurally; balanced, and connected to hold up something seemingly invisible and weightless, but is actually quite a bit of mass. Doing more with less, beautifully.

Like being grounded in, and dancing good AT.

yeah, but i only have two legs

 

[Angel HI]

True... you only have 2 legs, but the principle is identical, as explained ......

All this talk about exactly what the feet and legs should be doing seems a bit misleading to me. Check out this article about how dancers can ground themselves better

http://balletjazztapdance.suite101.com/article.cfm/how-to-be-more-grounded-in-dance-movements

Although largely aimed at ballet and jazz dancers I think it is very applicable to AT. Briefly - it's down to relaxing the legs (keeping the knees soft), using the core and being aware of the floor with your feet.

Personally, I think I would add good posture to the list, as well.

 

[JohnEm]

True... you only have 2 legs, but the principle is identical, as explained ......

Yes but the table ain't doing Tango.
Stable it may be but only one of the three legs should be on the floor.
Then let's see it repeat the trick.

 

[Peaches]

Yes but the table ain't doing Tango.
Stable it may be but only one of the three legs should be on the floor.
Then let's see it repeat the trick.

Are you just deliberately being argumentative or did you actually genuinely miss the entire point of what he was saying?

 

[JohnEm]

Are you just deliberately being argumentative or did you actually genuinely miss the entire point of what he was saying?

You take the bait quickly Peaches.
Even when there isn't one.

As you've been so sharp this is as it is.

The table is clever, but not Tango.
It's an example of bending forces being converted
to compression by means of wires in tension.

The result is an inherently stable tripod.

Not tango is it. No table comparison is valid really
when reduced the actual physical science of it.
Still an attractive interesting table though.

Tango is walking and balancing dynamically on one leg
at a time. It needs grounding for sure, however it's described.

It needs body tone, strengthened muscles in places
that you don't consciously think about for normal everyday life.

And no, whatever you may think, I'm not being argumentative
even if you disagree with my argument.

I'll leave you to work out what the actual point
of my comment was.

 

[Angel HI]

Answer: Intentionally argumentative. But we understand................

 

[Joe]

The table is clever, but not Tango.
It's an example of bending forces being converted
to compression by means of wires in tension.

Actually, there are no intermediate pivot points in any of the members, so there are no bending forces, only axial loads.

 

[newbie]

Physics actually can explain it. First, John is incorrect (or imprecise) about what he said. Weight is the force that your body pushes down as a result of gravity. But one can press down and increase that force (briefly), and if you do it hard and quick enough, you will jump as a result of the higher force.

To me John is correct. You cannot just create weight. If you push the floor you are momentarily heavier but the next second you are lighter. If you make jumps on the floor your average weight is the same than if you stand still, but there are times (when you push on the floor, and then when you land) when you're heavier than usually, and times when you weigh nothing (when in the air).
Now it's different if the ceiling is low and you can raise your hands and press. Then, by pressing the ceiling with your hands and the floor with your feet you can create a weight on the floor that is larger than your own weight.

 

[dchester]

To me John is correct. You cannot just create weight. If you push the floor you are momentarily heavier but the next second you are lighter. If you make jumps on the floor your average weight is the same than if you stand still, but there are times (when you push on the floor, and then when you land) when you're heavier than usually, and times when you weigh nothing (when in the air).
Now it's different if the ceiling is low and you can raise your hands and press. Then, by pressing the ceiling with your hands and the floor with your feet you can create a weight on the floor that is larger than your own weight.

Weight is a force that is created as a result of gravity and mass. There are other ways to create force, and pretty much whenever you move, you are creating a force. The force created by pushing harder on the ground has a limited duration of time, (like most forces), but it is still a true force. Without trying to be argumentative, this is basic newtonian physics.