grounded vs heavy. ungrounded vs light

[newbie]

Weight is a force that is created as a result of gravity and mass. There are other ways to create force, and pretty much whenever you move, you are creating a force. The force created by pushing harder on the ground has a limited duration of time, (like most forces), but it is still a true force. Without trying to be argumentative, this is basic newtonian physics.

Yes we know about that, you push the Earth and this moves you up and this moves the Earth down and fortunately it is statistically compensated by someone else on the other side of the planet who is jumping too. But you're not gaining weight in the process, and therefore pushing the floor (or jumping, if you push too hard) does not make you more grounded, that is, if another dancer bumps into you while you're jumping you will notice immediately how ungrounded you are. To be more grounded, maybe we can try wearing a belt with dive weights.

 

[dchester]

Yes we know about that, you push the Earth and this moves you up and this moves the Earth down and fortunately it is statistically compensated by someone else on the other side of the planet who is jumping too. But you're not gaining weight in the process, and therefore pushing the floor (or jumping, if you push too hard) does not make you more grounded, that is, if another dancer bumps into you while you're jumping you will notice immediately how ungrounded you are. To be more grounded, maybe we can try wearing a belt with dive weights.

I've been saying FORCE can be created, not weight. Weight is a specific kind of force, which comes from gravity (and mass). It's not clear to me why you are claiming I said weight can be created. So I'll stop debating this topic with you.

 

[Mario7]

I've been saying FORCE can be created, not weight.

I case I haven't said it often enough yet, I completely agree with d'chester in that it's the way force is applied thru the legs and feet into the floor that produces real groundedness. I've felt it myself and I've danced with some who have had it and some who have not.
What's all this (humor?) about wearing weights and stuff...I can't understand all the resistence that certain words get, like; 'grounded' and 'cadencia', etc...I'll just bet that the posters who object to certain terms are those who have simply not addressed those things in their own dance...but we'll never know, will we?
I'll go one step further and say that I've personally found these 'concept' threads to be VERY edifying and have helped me to understand important components of the dance..thanks all!

 

[Angel HI]

....it's down to relaxing the legs (keeping the knees soft), using the core, and being aware of the floor through the feet....

This is still the point that needs to be addressed. Also, it has not been mentioned that equally important is how one carries the weight. Most dances require it to be carried high in the core... often difficult.

 

[JohnEm]

I case I haven't said it often enough yet, I completely agree with d'chester in that it's the way force is applied thru the legs and feet into the floor that produces real groundedness.

Strangely, dchester has never said any such thing though others have said that in different ways.

I've felt it myself and I've danced with some who have had it and some who have not.

And yes, to feel it both partners need to have tone, posture etc., etc., all those things that you dismissed in another thread. Angel HI, immediately above, adds another relevant perspective too which requires that lifted ribcage & backwards held shoulders for connection and projection.

What's all this (humor?) about wearing weights and stuff...I can't understand all the resistence that certain words get, like; 'grounded' and 'cadencia', etc...I'll just bet that the posters who object to certain terms are those who have simply not addressed those things in their own dance...but we'll never know, will we?

Since when is there anything wrong with a bit of humour?
I do think that your generalised, uninformed assumptive criticism is rather odd though.
If I were you, I wouldn't place that bet anytime soon.

I'll go one step further and say that I've personally found these 'concept' threads to be VERY edifying and have helped me to understand important components of the dance..thanks all!

Most of what I've seen is just confusion.

 

[ant]

equally important is how one carries the weight. Most dances require it to be carried high in the core... often difficult.

Originally Posted by JohnEm
Angel HI, immediately above, adds another relevant perspective too which requires that lifted ribcage

I am having some trouble with these two posts above.

I find that if I lift my ribcage this disengages my core. My core is where it is and does not vary in height unless I raise myself by standing on my toes.

I feel the only thing that alters my core in relation to the rest of my body is how far forward I allow my weight to go in relation to my feet.

I wonder if you can give any further expalnation on what you mean by raising the core.

 

[JohnEm]

I am having some trouble with these two posts above.

I find that if I lift my ribcage this disengages my core. My core is where it is and does not vary in height unless I raise myself by standing on my toes.

I entirely take your point of course and it's one of those expressions that gets used in dance to describe a feeling rather than an actuality. And in Tango it's the feeling your partner perceives.

I feel the only thing that alters my core in relation to the rest of my body is how far forward I allow my weight to go in relation to my feet.

Strangely you are now describing a feeling as an actuality! Of course your core doesn't move in relation to your body as your whole body has moved forward.

I wonder if you can give any further expalnation on what you mean by raising the core.

I'll give it a try.

Lifting your ribcage shouldn't disengage your core muscles but enable to you to consciously engage them. And when Angel HI writes about carrying the weight high in the core it is just that feeling of carrying yourself tall of posture, upright and taut(ish).
If you sag, flop and wilt at the hips then you are carrying the weight low or rather that is how you will feel to your partner - heavy and lifeless.

And to get there: stand tall and upright, reach your arms upwards in surrender. Then maintaining the torso posture bring your arms down and your shoulders back and down. It's a challenge to maintain that during the dance especially if you don't carry yourself well in normal everyday life as I found out. So it becomes Tango preparation to try and maintain it at all times.

Incidentally I'm not sure to whom I owe some of this explanation, maybe Rick McGarrey at TangoandChaos, always worth a read.

And Angel HI might have some observations of his own. In the Tango way they may be completely contradictory!

 

[Mario7]

I am having some trouble with these two posts above.
I find that if I lift my ribcage this disengages my core. My core is where it is and does not vary in height unless I raise myself by standing on my toes.
I feel the only thing that alters my core in relation to the rest of my body is how far forward I allow my weight to go in relation to my feet.

The above post is a gem in my opinion! Being advised to 'lift the ribcage' is what kept me from being able to lead for my first year of dancing. It's NOT natural and it throws everything out of whack and cannot be maintained anyway...( Note: My Experience) ..In my case it was a fantasy direction.
Yes, leaning forward (from the ankles) is what did it all for me. THE problem posture is when the man sort of lays back as if peddling a bicycle and NOT a racing bike..but rather one of those fat tire one ton bikes that has a little carriage on the handlebars for carrying home groceries.

 

[JohnEm]

The above post is a gem in my opinion! Being advised to 'lift the ribcage' is what kept me from being able to lead for my first year and a half. It's NOT natural and it throws everything out of whack and cannot be maintained anyway...( Note: My Experience) ..In my case it was a fantasy direction.
Yes, leaning forward (from the ankles) is what did it all for me. THE problem posture is when the man sort of lays back as if peddling a bicycle and NOT a racing bike..but rather one of those fat tire one ton bikes that has a little carriage on the handlebars for carrying home groceries.

Here you go again Mario, confusing issues.

The two points are not mutually exclusive.

You need to be toned, upright, engaged and leaning forward from the ankles. The fact you never did get the ocho cortado right and ended up with a fudge is an indication that the two of you are not communicating and connecting physically. And for that you need to project by being tall yet forward in the chest not drooping forward.
In apilado tango, your frame (to use a ballroom expression) is within you.

Tone and posture may escape you but that may be that like many people you aren't fit and have no real core strength in the first place. Age is little excuse though time is. And by that I mean that many of us have lead sedentary working lives so muscle strength gets lost, but much is recoverable but it needs a positive desire to regain fitness to do it. People feel healthier for it too. Apilado is surprisingly physically challenging for what seems to be a slow paced relaxed dance.

I can't speak for your body but I can speak for mine and my own experience. I have seen your video though . . . .

 

[Steve Pastor]

In apilado tango, your frame (to use a ballroom expression) is within you.

John, you sound scarily like me! I've been telling anyone who would listen (and even people who won't) that the frame collapses as the embrace becomes "closer" ending up on the bodies in apilado

Now that we are solidly in the posture realm...

What did it for me was my one instructor placing his had on the base of my skull, probably once every lesson for about a year and a half. This was his way of reminding me that I had to keep my head above my shoulders, not in front of them.

Not coincidently, Skippy Blair uses the term "centering knob" to describe the area at the base of the skull. Sounds weird, I know, but once you get used to the sound of it, it's not so bad, and there IS "knob" there. This is the exact same concept that Steven Payne used with me, but he didn't have a term for it.

(One of the few complements I received last week during 4 days of lessons was on my posture. And believe me, my mother told me for years to "stand up straight", and THAT never worked! And I'm not a young guy. Well into middle age dogs CAN learn new tricks!)

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...b.pdf+centering+knob&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

[Mario7]

Tone and posture may escape you but that may be that like many people you aren't fit and have no real core strength in the first place.
I can't speak for your body but I can speak for mine and my own experience. I have seen your video though . . . .

There you go again John, referring to my body as if you know it personally.
I think that you may be mixing me up with videos of Tete Rosconi.

[YT]
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[JohnEm]

What did it for me was my one instructor placing his had on the base of my skull, probably once every lesson for about a year and a half. This was his way of reminding me that I had to keep my head above my shoulders, not in front of them.

And to think I nearly wrote additionally about having your head balanced on the top of your spine! That is still my recurring problem though getting better.

Head position is very influential on balance and being centered. The unnatural requirement of the apilado lean perhaps makes it seem more natural to poke the head forward as a sort of aid.

Not coincidently, Skippy Blair uses the term "centering knob" to describe the area at the base of the skull. Sounds weird, I know, but once you get used to the sound of it, it's not so bad, and there IS "knob" there. This is the exact same concept that Steven Payne used with me, but he didn't have a term for it.

Yes there is, and it seems to me that the more pronounced it is the worse your natural head position is.

Well into middle age dogs CAN learn new tricks!

Without a doubt. And beyond middle age too.

 

[Peaches]

I'll give it a try.

Lifting your ribcage shouldn't disengage your core muscles but enable to you to consciously engage them. And when Angel HI writes about carrying the weight high in the core it is just that feeling of carrying yourself tall of posture, upright and taut(ish).
If you sag, flop and wilt at the hips then you are carrying the weight low or rather that is how you will feel to your partner - heavy and lifeless.

And to get there: stand tall and upright, reach your arms upwards in surrender. Then maintaining the torso posture bring your arms down and your shoulders back and down. It's a challenge to maintain that during the dance especially if you don't carry yourself well in normal everyday life as I found out. So it becomes Tango preparation to try and maintain it at all times.

Spot on! That's how I learned it, as well. Well, no...that's how it was first explained to me, it took another year or so before I could maintain it without thinking. My teacher used the analogy of reaching up to a high closet shelf to get something, but being sure to leave my heels on the floor and my knees soft.

IMO, there's something of a misconception about having the core engaged. I think it can sometimes be misconstrued as keeping your abs tight, and that sort of defeats a lot of the purpose of having good posture and interferes with movement. I know that when I have my core really "engaged" (I really don't like those terms, but what can you do?) my body feels looser and more free. I feel like there is more space between my ribcage and my hips, my hips feel loose and relaxed, my spine feels loose and relaxed...everything. It truly is a very pleasant, natural feeling.

I work on having good posture when I walk and when I stand. I smoke, so that gives me plenty of opportunities to really stand tall and relaxed, and to focus on how that makes the rest of my body feel.

 

[spectator]

another reason why smoking is good for you. I like you even more!

 

[Peaches]

another reason why smoking is good for you. I like you even more!

LOL. I needed that laugh. *cheers!* (Or whatever the smokers' version of that would be.)