grounded vs heavy. ungrounded vs light

[Mario7]

Well yes, of course we're different weights and sizes but there's such a thing as dance fitness, for any dance. And essentially we all have the same structure, but different life experiences, wear and tear...For some reason people think they can come to dance later in life and not have to work at it...
Yes, you can work around it & avoid preparatory work (getting fit) but the experience you and your partner gets is not the same. In milonguero/apilado tango the connection, the ability to lead and to follow, the wonder of it, gets lost. It's like the difference between driving a european sporty car and saloon car with soft springs and no shockabsorbers (dampers over there?). It can be comfortable but ultimately unrewarding and isolated.

Not a European sports car because the springs are too soft..rather than pilates there was a lot of fork lifting.
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[dchester]

Not a European sports car because the springs are too soft..rather than pilates there was a lot of fork lifting.

Funny

The car analogy may be a good one. Some people are going for the feel of a Corvette, while others are going for the feel of a Lincoln Town Car. Both are fine cars, just different.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Want a cigarette?

How about a threesome? Because I too really liked your description!

Would you say then that the more common problem is that followers go PAST the "arrival" stage too quickly (can't control the momentum) or that they don't fully ever arrive?

I would say that the former is my problem and what a great way to start thinking about achieving better control!

 

[Zoopsia59]

Yes the "engaging the core" is another mysterious term but somehow we all know what that means.

Actually, I would say that only people who have experienced what Peaches described know what it means. Most everyone else would think of tightening (constricting) the core muscles. I know that one of my biggest challenges is engaging and energizing my muscles without tensing them.

 

[Zoopsia59]

It has been explained to me what is as important is to feel no hollow or curvature in the base of your spine when you think you are engaging your core because any inward curving of the back, which will result from the lifting of the ribcage, may cause pain when consistantly done during a Milonga and more long term back problems if you persist.

Huh? The back naturally has a hollow and curvature inward at the small of the back (the amount of which varies from person to person) The only way you can eliminate it is to tilt your pelvis back (tucked under).

So I assume you mean no additional curvature from lifting the ribcage?

 

[tangonuevo]

How about a threesome? Because I too really liked your description!

Actually, my partner (also my life partner BTW) may even disapprove of the first offer.

Would you say then that the more common problem is that followers go PAST the "arrival" stage too quickly (can't control the momentum) or that they don't fully ever arrive?

I would say that the former is my problem and what a great way to start thinking about achieving better control!

I've seen both - follows who have to be pushed to their axis and those who too quickly move past it. In either case, it doesn't feel grounded to me. In the former, perhaps she can feel the ground through me, but I can't feel it through her. She just feels heavy, not grounded. And in the latter, neither one of us can really feel the ground through the other.

I also see a lot of leads who just shuffle from step to step, never arriving so that the follow can really tell where they are, but also just shuffling on past the point where they should have felt grounded to their partner. I won't post any videos (Mario has posted enough for all to go back a look at ), but if you look at nearly any of the old and respected milongueros, you can really see this sense of arrival, which translates into a strong feeling of a grounded connection.

 

[Zoopsia59]

If you engage your core by lifting your ribcage, irrespective of what other techiques you are applying, it is going to cause back problems, due to curvature of the spine. .

It seems to me that lower back problems come more from what one does with the pelvis tilt than the ribs. I think when some people "raise their ribcage" they also drop their pelvis forward as part of that feeling. Its the forward tilt to the pelvis that creates more curvature in the lower back and results in back pain, No?

Raising the ribs without affecting the pelvis at all and without creating tension in the mid-upper back results in only a very slight movement of the ribs and has little affect on the lower back (at least in MY body) It does give a feeling of "lengthening" the overall torso rather than any compression in the lower back. But as I said, the amount of "lift" is VERY small. Any more than that starts to change the orientation of my pelvis.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I can't freaking understand why this isn't obvious..there's probably a list of other problems that 'lifiting the ribcage' will cause. Of course, I'm thinking CE but imagine the problems that lifting the ribcage causes in the embrace..

Properly lifting the ribcage is what creates that feeling you LIKE of a follower being a "coiled spring" (your words I believe) creating a lifting feeling rather than being a weight downward on you.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I've seen both - follows who have to be pushed to their axis and those who too quickly move past it. In either case, it doesn't feel grounded to me. In the former, perhaps she can feel the ground through me, but I can't feel it through her. She just feels heavy, not grounded. And in the latter, neither one of us can really feel the ground through the other.

I would expect that the latter (the ones who go past the arrival) feel too light?

 

[tangonuevo]

I would expect that the latter (the ones who go past the arrival) feel too light?

Indeed they do.

 

[Subliminal]

Meh, the whole lifting the ribcage thing never worked for me, until one teacher told me to try visualizing opening my ribs out to the side rather than pushing them up. That seemed to do the trick.

But yeah. If you're starting from nothing, all of those things are meaningless unless you have someone experienced to tell you when you've got it right.

 

[bafonso]

How about a threesome? Because I too really liked your description!

Would you say then that the more common problem is that followers go PAST the "arrival" stage too quickly (can't control the momentum) or that they don't fully ever arrive?

I would say that the former is my problem and what a great way to start thinking about achieving better control!

To me groundedness is different than the ability to transmit your state through your embrace even though both go together as only a relaxed dancer is really able to be grounded.

 

[bafonso]

Actually, I would say that only people who have experienced what Peaches described know what it means. Most everyone else would think of tightening (constricting) the core muscles. I know that one of my biggest challenges is engaging and energizing my muscles without tensing them.

Imagery can help you a lot with this. For example, you can pick up a small object not very heavy with your arm without tensing your biceps. You can also pick it up while fully tensing your biceps. Imagine your arms are made out of balloons with helium for example.

The same happens in legs, core muscles, etc in dancing. You want to move using your muscles but not at their full amount of tension. That gives you the relaxed feeling and ability to transmit energy throughout your body.

I see a lot of people almost doing a work out while dancing. They don't feel good.

 

[Joe]

Remember that your ribcage is not only in your front, it's also in your back.

 

[JohnEm]

It seems to me that lower back problems come more from what one does with the pelvis tilt than the ribs. I think when some people "raise their ribcage" they also drop their pelvis forward as part of that feeling. Its the forward tilt to the pelvis that creates more curvature in the lower back and results in back pain, No?

Yes. And when I had more serious back problems that incorrect tilt was either a cause or a result, no idea which.

I suspect that because of the different demands of following - walking backwards etc. - that ladies tend to do that incorrect tilt more than men especially when they are in that rather painful looking lower back arm hold. But as I'm a mere leader, how would I know?

Raising the ribs without affecting the pelvis at all and without creating tension in the mid-upper back results in only a very slight movement of the ribs and has little affect on the lower back (at least in MY body) It does give a feeling of "lengthening" the overall torso rather than any compression in the lower back.

Absolutely, and if you can't get that feeling of lengthening then practice is definitely needed!

But as I said, the amount of "lift" is VERY small. Any more than that starts to change the orientation of my pelvis.

Really? Is that when you do it leaning forward? That doesn't happen in my case so your body must be different to mine, in addition to the obvious ways!

Remember that your ribcage is not only in your front, it's also in your back.

And what a useful reminder from Joe.

When we talk about the ribcage we are talking about all of it not just lifting the front but an elongation of the whole body, front, back and sides!

The same happens in legs, core muscles, etc in dancing. You want to move using your muscles but not at their full amount of tension. That gives you the relaxed feeling and ability to transmit energy throughout your body.

Moderation in everything: extension not lock up. And enough muscle strength to maintain it comfortably plus a mix of suppleness and control for movement.

And other things can cause lockup too, tiredness, tension, nervousness, discomfort. It takes time, practice, lots of dancing to achieve nirvana.