Group Lessons - Ouch!

[happyshoes]

Since most of the students who attend the group lessons at my studio are focused on learning the step patterns, I got into the habit of not asking too many questions on technique etc., but observing the instructor's body, feet etc. to understand their movement and technique better. Imagine my surprise when I faithfully reproduced something I had picked up in my subsequent private lesson and my instructor chided me for doing that. I of course said, 'But I saw XYZ do that during our group lesson' and he goes, 'always make sure you ask the instructor before you put anything into your own dancing'. The teacher might be demoing a particular aspect only and may not be performing it 100% correctly. Since the instructors are on their feet for 8 hours or more a day, they might even be 'faking it' (those were his words).

So I started asking the teachers about what I would observe and I heard more than once 'I was cheating' and then they would show me how they would actually do it. I am slowly beginning to mistrust my group lessons as a result. I understand there are many levels to performing a particular step, and I am confused whether a teacher is performing at the level approriate for the class, or doing it incorrectly because it is not important. I don't know anymore what to learn from my group lessons.

Sorry to go back to this comparison, but when I learnt music, my teacher would play alongside and would never fake it, which made me always give my best. I thought dancing was similar.

Are my expectations of my teachers misplaced? Am I somehow placing a high bar for my teachers which is not practical? Is teaching through words and not emulation? I would like teachers on DF to give their perspective on this so I can understand it better.

Thanks.

 

[BasicsFirst]

I agree with your instructor (which could even apply to a private lesson)... don't try to learn something 'other' than what they are talking about, GROUP or PRIVATE. Even in a private always ask about something that you saw them do if necessary, and get the "yes" do that this way or "no" let's fix some other things first before we get into that.

For some teachers "no" I don't feel your expectations are misplaced and for other "yes" I do, but also feel you will quickly come to know who will meet your "group lesson bar" and those who won't. Seems "groups" will never change... 'steps, steps, steps' otherwise "this is boring". Sounds to me like you're just about done with group lessons.

 

[dbk]

Since most of the students who attend the group lessons at my studio are focused on learning the step patterns, I got into the habit of not asking too many questions on technique etc., but observing the instructor's body, feet etc. to understand their movement and technique better. Imagine my surprise when I faithfully reproduced something I had picked up in my subsequent private lesson and my instructor chided me for doing that. I of course said, 'But I saw XYZ do that during our group lesson' and he goes, 'always make sure you ask the instructor before you put anything into your own dancing'. The teacher might be demoing a particular aspect only and may not be performing it 100% correctly. Since the instructors are on their feet for 8 hours or more a day, they might even be 'faking it' (those were his words).

So I started asking the teachers about what I would observe and I heard more than once 'I was cheating' and then they would show me how they would actually do it. I am slowly beginning to mistrust my group lessons as a result. I understand there are many levels to performing a particular step, and I am confused whether a teacher is performing at the level approriate for the class, or doing it incorrectly because it is not important. I don't know anymore what to learn from my group lessons.

Sorry to go back to this comparison, but when I learnt music, my teacher would play alongside and would never fake it, which made me always give my best. I thought dancing was similar.

Are my expectations of my teachers misplaced? Am I somehow placing a high bar for my teachers which is not practical? Is teaching through words and not emulation? I would like teachers on DF to give their perspective on this so I can understand it better.

Thanks.

Yes and no. Of course, keep in mind I'm only a student myself, and not very high level.

Anyway. Learning by emulation is a great idea - but I think the best time to do this is when your teacher is dancing a step, not just walking through a step to teach it. When he's walking through it, he might be thinking about some other part of the step, and talking about some other part of the step. He might even be exaggerating one part of a step to show how it's done, and messing up other elements of the step in the process.

And yes, I can understand a little bit of "cheating" if a teacher is demonstrating another part of the step, and the "cheated" part is strenuous. They're only human. Plus, focus should be on whatever it is he's talking about.

So your best bet is really to raise your hand and ask. That way, he'll focus on the bit you want to know, AND he can tell you the how's and why's of what he's doing. You could also ask him to demonstrate it like he would dance it. Of course, if he does it wrong then, I would start shopping for other teachers. If the teacher or studio frowned on asking for clarification (in moderation, of course) during group lessons, I would start shopping around, too.

 

[cornutt]

I agree with your instructor (which could even apply to a private lesson)... don't try to learn something 'other' than what they are talking about, GROUP or PRIVATE. Even in a private always ask about something that you saw them do if necessary, and get the "yes" do that this way or "no" let's fix some other things first before we get into that.

I'm afraid I have to take exception with this. Just because it's a group class, that does not excuse sloppy technique on the instructor's part. Nor does "I've been on my feet all day" excuse it either... what if they have a private the next hour? If they can't get through a group class, then what are they going to do to that poor student in the private? Now, I'll admit it's unrealistic to expect every instructor to be at "comp level" all the time, but there's a difference between that and sleepwalking through a group class with slouchy posture and incorrect footwork.

As far as a private, if my instructor can't be bothered to do something correctly unless I specifically ask about it, then I'm finding another instructor.

 

[fascination]

I too am not a teacher but my observations would include;

A) it is possible that your private instructor is being diplomatic...in that, not every teacher in a studio has alot of mileage on them, particularly many who might be entrusted to the most basic levels of group classes...certainly this is not an absolute, but it is a distinct possibility...
B)it is great if you are getting technique in a group lesson, but if you aren't there is probably a pretty good reason for that...I wish it weren't so but you also don't want a lousy technician teaching technique
C) if you can trust the competence of the person with whom you are taking private lessons, listen to them and do what they say...soon enough you will be able to figure out why things are the way they are

most new people have trouble making distinctions between the calibre of pros in a studio...b/c to them everyone looks like a good dancer....soon enough the sea parts

 

[wooh]

My husband has been helping our instructor with some of her beginner groups. There are times that he comes home and tells me how he's learned to do things the "teaching way" rather than the correct way. To allow people to see what they're supposed to do instead of seeing what they think they're seeing. (In other words, it's not done the way it looks like it's done, so she has a way of doing it so they can the gist of what they should be doing.) Depending on the level of the group, the studio may have a way of teaching beginners that isn't the absolute "correct" way but is a step on the way to getting to the correct way.

 

[elisedance]

And thats true really of all teaching. Concepts have to be simplified so that you can pick up the basics. For example you learn electricity flows down a wire like - imagine if you had to learn quantum mechanics at the same time!

We learn steps in dancing first but we do not learn swing and sway since those concepts would make the steps too hard to grasp, least for most - and many people will never need to learn them anyway.

 

[etp777]

Besides, it's really just flowing along the surface, which is why you switch to stranded rather than solid core for better signal quality....

Oh wait, we were talking about dancing.

 

[jwlinson]

We learn steps in dancing first but we do not learn swing and sway since those concepts would make the steps too hard to grasp, least for most - and many people will never need to learn them anyway.

Absolutely.

The majority of people taking group classes have no desire to learn the gritty details. They only want the footwork. If the instructor tried to show everyone the precise technique behind the steps most of those people would become bored and/or frustrated and stop taking the classes.

Use the group class to learn the footwork, use your private lessons to refine them and pick up the technical details.

 

[Chiron]

I've seen some of the pro's at my studio 'tone down' things in group classes. I'm pretty sure the reason they do this is so that the students can focus on the piece they are learning. I'm not at a high level but one thing I've seen with the newbie class in waltz is that there is not much rise and fall and no sway. If the instructor did a full out competition level box the students would try to copy the larger rise and fall and sway and look like wack-a-moles that were getting hit on one side. Rise and fall and sway are important, but not so much at this point in the students dancing. Let them understand the basic box first and move more than 2' in a direction before throwing these things in.

This being said when I see the teachers teach the more advanced classes they do tend to dance in full competition form. It may also be useful to ask the instructor if they can give you some technique pointers during the class. I've had instructors do this for me before.

 

[ChenLing]

Also to consider: while emulation has its uses, doing what you think you see rarely leads to correct dancing. The worse thing that can happen is that you successfully copy what it looks like, and instructors never correct you. If you see some good piece of technique, you should either ask about it in class or ask your private instructor about what it does, why it's useful, and then how to generate it.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

it is possible that your private instructor is being diplomatic

The instructor might be being diplomatic in another way, as well. Full competition or performance technique is unlikely to be emulated correctly by beginners; for example, use of full and correct sway is likely to result in a lot of incorrect broken sides on the part of students in a beginner level class.

It could also distract from the things the instructor is trying to teach.

Besides, it's really just flowing along the surface, which is why you switch to stranded rather than solid core for better signal quality....

This is something of a myth, except for very high frequency signals. The advantage of stranded wire is that it can take smaller bend radii, and that breakage in a single strand does not prevent current from being carried. There must be some disadvantage with respect to signal fidelity, though, since ethernet cable needs to be solid core.

 

[fascination]

agree...a host of things

 

[elisedance]

[INteresting that when a thread reaches a certain lenght people no longer read the earlier part and start to raise exactly the same ideas that have already been shared - for some it would appear that that length is one page!] BOT...

 

[dancepro]

Since most of the students who attend the group lessons at my studio are focused on learning the step patterns, I got into the habit of not asking too many questions on technique etc.

I have found that many students, that take group classes, are into step pattens. I must therefore admit I am not surprised with that. Some students also get annoyed when too many technical questions are asked as they don't feel they get the quantity they are expecting. I would suggest to not ask too many questions in a group class that has a focus on step pattens. If the studio has a technique group class that would be a different scenario.

observing the instructor's body, feet etc. to understand their movement and technique better.

I learned a lot for watching my teachers teach. They were all of the belief that a professional should do their very best everyday and every time they walk on the floor.

Imagine my surprise when I faithfully reproduced something I had picked up in my subsequent private lesson and my instructor chided me for doing that. I of course said, 'But I saw XYZ do that during our group lesson' and he goes, 'always make sure you ask the instructor before you put anything into your own dancing'. The teacher might be demoing a particular aspect only and may not be performing it 100% correctly. Since the instructors are on their feet for 8 hours or more a day, they might even be 'faking it' (those were his words).

I can imagine you being stunned, I would have been stunned too. I can understand not dancing at 100% competitive level all the time...but body and feet doesn't have to be sloppy just because you are not dancing full out. My teacher told me to dance everything with the same precision whether I was dancing on the competition floor or in a closet. If I had even dared putting the words "faking it" or showing actions of faking it, I am sure my teacher would have drooped me as a student or at least lost interest in my dancing.

So I started asking the teachers about what I would observe and I heard more than once 'I was cheating' and then they would show me how they would actually do it. I am slowly beginning to mistrust my group lessons as a result. I understand there are many levels to performing a particular step, and I am confused whether a teacher is performing at the level approriate for the class, or doing it incorrectly because it is not important. I don't know anymore what to learn from my group lessons.

I can totally understand you loosing confidence in the information and technique shown in the group classes. I would do the same if I were you. I can understand a teacher having a bad day. We all have those once in a while. This however sounds more like the norm, then the once in a while bad day.

Sorry to go back to this comparison, but when I learnt music, my teacher would play alongside and would never fake it, which made me always give my best. I thought dancing was similar.

I can promise you that is how I was trained in dancing as well. I am sorry you are experiencing such a let down. Maybe you need to have a talk to the owner of the studio and bring up your concern. Maybe see if there are others in the studio that are interested in technique group classes. See if you can find a solution that will work for you, the teachers and the studio.

Are my expectations of my teachers misplaced? Am I somehow placing a high bar for my teachers which is not practical? Is teaching through words and not emulation? I would like teachers on DF to give their perspective on this so I can understand it better.

Thanks.

I have been a teacher for many years. My teachers always told me that if or when I lost the spark to find a way to get it back. I always got a lot from my teachers and I try to do my best to always give 100% in my lessons. Of cause I do have a bad day once in a while, but I do try to keep my bad feeling and attitudes at home or in the hotel room.
I was always taught that students learn in different ways. Some learn through seeing, some through hearing, some through feeling, some through logic and some through imagination. Plus there is 4 personalities (in the system that I teach by) and each personalities have different values and ways of learning. As a teacher it is our job to find the ways the students learn. In group classes I will often say the same thing in 4 different ways to make sure I got the interest of all 4 personalities.

Where I learned to teach, we did have to take a teachers degree, plus I spend 1 year after retiring to learn the system that my teacher taught by. I once asked him how many others had asked for the system, to my great surprise only one other person had ever asked him for this information.

Once again I am sorry about your experience. I hope you find a solution soon, regain the confidence in the teachers again and go back to enjoying learning the way that suits you the best. All the best

Dancepro.