Growing Old in Tango

[ArbeeNYC]

Instead, they recommend that new people should go to practicas and learn by dancing with experienced dancers,

LOL. Well, first you have to find some experienced dancer who is willing to put up with you instead of dancing with people at their level. If you're young & good looking, it might work, but it's going to take a long, long time without guidance or some kind of structured instruction. For most folks, especially an older crowd, good luck finding an experienced dancer (even a less experienced dancer) to give up their time to practice with you (and teach you along the way).

 

[pianistamediano]

LOL. Well, first you have to find some experienced dancer who is willing to put up with you instead of dancing with people at their level. If you're young & good looking, it might work, but it's going to take a long, long time without guidance or some kind of structured instruction. For most folks, especially an older crowd, good luck finding an experienced dancer (even a less experienced dancer) to give up their time to practice with you (and teach you along the way).

Exactly! You have many dancers who won't dance with beginners (well, leaders tend to be more willing). And being willing to give feedback and advice and showing them the ropes and dancing with them is... exhausting at the best of times. It requires a really, really friendly and supportive community who show up regularly at the practica.

I think the people who support this approach are thinking of how it was like back then - men dancing with men for practice before being allowed to go into a milonga, women learning from family or trusted family friends at home. And there's definitely a lot of bad things that can happen as a result of classes. But I'm going off on too much of a tangent, so I've created a new thread here.

 

[opendoor]

...'well-known' because they're the ones which eminently inspire... The 'hits' of that era..

Unfortunately, such an attitude alienates me more and more from the tango scene! What I consider to be inspirational tracks or 'hits' of the era are not shared at the relevant milongas these days. I can't dance that much anymore, so with every tanda I weigh up between expected pain and promised pleasure. I no longer dance to the usual repertoire of so called GA tangos. I thought this music was awful from the start, but I danced to it. Now I stay seated. If I go to DJ at 10pm and ask for a Pugliese-Marciel, Salamanca-Guerrico, diSarli-Pomar, d'Arienzo-Bustos, deAngelis-Larroca, Varela-Laborde tanda, I get incredulous, ignorant and often disgusted eyes. And this, although these artists reached the highest sales figures at the end of the 50s.

..growing old in tango!!

 

[Bailango]

If you're young & good looking, it might work, but it's going to take a long, long time without guidance or some kind of structured instruction.

If it is an inexperienced follower with a leader of some experience, it can work well. Once had a friend who was enthusiastic to Tango when she found I danced. We only went to practicalonga and soon to weekly milonga. That milonga was friendly and large, where people were not as serious/snobby like at traditional milonga. At traditional milonga too she was sought after. In less that couple of months.

Last year I encountered a follower who had been dancing less than a month when I first dance with her. She had good balance, able to keep her axis most of the time, could pivot and walk. She too said she didn’t take any lessons. She went to popular practicalonga code to where she lives. After two to three months, she was as good or better than many ladies at the most popular weekly milonga.

Both had one thing in common. They had gymnastics background when young. Both were in their 30s when starting Tango. Both being very friendly to everyone. Not being regular, they hadn’t been infected with keeping serious face at the milonga.

There is another friend of mine I have been trying to convince to start Tango. She wishes to but is too lazy to make time to come out. I have no doubt she will be popular if she becomes a regular.

 

[pianistamediano]

Unfortunately, such an attitude alienates me more and more from the tango scene! What I consider to be inspirational tracks or 'hits' of the era are not shared at the relevant milongas these days. I can't dance that much anymore, so with every tanda I weigh up between expected pain and promised pleasure. I no longer dance to the usual repertoire of so called GA tangos. I thought this music was awful from the start, but I danced to it. Now I stay seated. If I go to DJ at 10pm and ask for a Pugliese-Marciel, Salamanca-Guerrico, diSarli-Pomar, d'Arienzo-Bustos, deAngelis-Larroca, Varela-Laborde tanda, I get incredulous, ignorant and often disgusted eyes. And this, although these artists reached the highest sales figures at the end of the 50s.

This is why I believe that it's good to have a variety of DJs and milongas to cater to people's various tastes. DJs should ideally play for the dancers on the pista, but have their own "style", which is influenced by what they like. Milonga organisers determine what kind of atmosphere and what kind of music they want to be played at their milonga (anything from alternative to ballroom stuff, from GA to modern orquestas), so they should be discerning in inviting DJs. Or they can just do the music themselves.

You should be here instead of wherever you are; I hear some DJs play Di Sarli/Pomar, Pugliese/Maciel on a semi-regular basis. Although Varela tends to be played mostly with Ledesma - Fueron tres años, Fumando espero, etc.. And the last tanda last night was Salamanca/Guerrico - Adiós Corazón and Todo es amor.

(Disclaimer: I like playing these combinations only once in a blue moon, so don't go to the ones I DJ. But I'm a Di Sarli fanatic, so I'm working on an experimental tanda by mixing Pomar vocals with other songs.)

 

[pianistamediano]

Both had one thing in common. They had gymnastics background when young. Both were in their 30s when starting Tango. Both being very friendly to everyone. Not being regular, they hadn’t been infected with keeping serious face at the milonga.

Yes, they pretty much had everything going for them — age, personality, background in dance/discipline that combines aesthetics and physicality, and they are followers. The last one kind of ensures that experienced leaders will give them much guidance. It's much rarer to see experienced followers helping beginner leaders to that extent. I've met one or two beginners like that who were really enjoyable to dance with, more so than some much more experienced dancers.

There is another friend of mine I have been trying to convince to start Tango. She wishes to but is too lazy to make time to come out. I have no doubt she will be popular if she becomes a regular.

Well, as Troilo said, el tango te espera. Maybe she will fall in love with the music, the connection, the embrace, maybe she won't, who knows? It waits for her to take the first step.

 

[opendoor]

..You should be here instead ...Di Sarli/Pomar, Pugliese/Maciel on a semi-regular basis. Although Varela tends to be played mostly with Ledesma - Fueron tres años, Fumando espero, etc.. And the last tanda.. Salamanca/Guerrico - Adiós Corazón and Todo es amor.
I'm a Di Sarli fanatic, so I'm working on.. mixing Pomar vocals with other songs..

Brother!

 

[Bailango]

Yes, they pretty much had everything going for them — age, personality, background in dance/discipline that combines aesthetics and physicality, and they are followers.

One of the most important thing they had which allowed them to dance is the sense of balance and good frame. They still were following activities that translated well to dancing.

 

[JohnEm]

OK, perhaps I misread your post and I would agree with the above statement. But the above abrazo is not a mystery and not all that uncommon, even up here. Point of connection here being about the solar plexus I assume.

Thank you for clarifying what you think abrazo/embrace is - but sadly you prove my point
that the Argentine way is not being taught since their contact point is the upper chest -
way higher than the solar plexus. In theory there is no lower body contact although
even this is subject to circumstances - such as the existence of "tango tummy" (or not).

Those teaching close embrace in Europe (and now even in Buenos Aires) seem to teach
a commencement of facing partners standing up to a foot length apart at the feet and
leaning from the ankles. Steve Pastor graphically showed the forces by use a of a ladder
diagram but this is somewhat inaccurate.

Human bodies aren't rigid like a ladder (which in practice do bend) so they tense and yet
still have a reverse bends and perhaps contact at the solar plexus results. This bodily
tension doesn't help extended social dancing so often other ways of contact develop.

So discard the distanced feet and move closer to one another - say feet 3 inches apart,
or 75 to 100mm. Don't stand bias weighted to heels but more even with perhaps a slight
bias forwards, stability is the most important. Now bend forwards from the hip joints
and you'll find that contact is at the top of the chest. Now you can control the forward
intention and resultant impulsion. As in Argentina you have to work out what works best,
and this varies partnership to partnership according to relative physicalities.

If you look anew at some videos you might find that Argentine men have this slight bend
irrespective of whether his partner bends in the same way - his effort is on his chest
projection no matter what. As you can imagine this cannot possibly be the whole story
because many other variables influence the success of the embrace and the dance.
Plus there are many other embraces in Tango - there are no rules as in ballroom.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Thank you for clarifying what you think abrazo/embrace is - but sadly you prove my point
that the Argentine way is not being taught since their contact point is the upper chest -
way higher than the solar plexus. In theory there is no lower body contact although
even this is subject to circumstances - such as the existence of "tango tummy" (or not).

---.

So discard the distanced feet and move closer to one another - say feet 3 inches apart,
or 75 to 100mm. Don't stand bias weighted to heels but more even with perhaps a slight
bias forwards, stability is the most important. Now bend forwards from the hip joints
and you'll find that contact is at the top of the chest. Now you can control the forward
intention and resultant impulsion. As in Argentina you have to work out what works best,
and this varies partnership to partnership according to relative physicalities.

Well, for me, as I was taught, it is the solar plexus, maybe the upper solar plexus, I dont' know. It depends on what feels most comfortable. The business of standing a foot apart is well, do we all want to pretend we're dancing like Gavito? I tried that once with a friend and it did create plenty of space down below but it was murderous to maintain and certainly not relaxed or suitable for dancing several tandas.

A few inches apart with the feet is about right. Could be three, could be four. But if you bend forward at the hips (you, the leader), you then have to straighten up your chest. It's a two-part hinge. The other part of the story is critical--the abrazo has to feel comfortable and natural and sustainable throughout the evening.

 

[JohnEm]

Well, for me, as I was taught, it is the solar plexus, maybe the upper solar plexus, I dont' know. It depends on what feels most comfortable. The business of standing a foot apart is well, do we all want to pretend we're dancing like Gavito? I tried that once with a friend and it did create plenty of space down below but it was murderous to maintain and certainly not relaxed or suitable for dancing several tandas.

Yes I know that is taught but my reference isn't teaching and of course you are right
about the disadvantages of excessive distance.

A few inches apart with the feet is about right. Could be three, could be four.

Dance isn't static so even this distance can disappear and I work from the basis
that it's the man's role to know exactly where he is taking his partner and take
feet avoidance measures. Too often in modern tango it seems to be left to
to woman - think of Noelia Hurtado and Carlitos where she provides almost
excessive foot space with an exaggerated bodily distortion.

But if you bend forward at the hips (you, the leader), you then have to straighten up your chest. It's a two-part hinge. The other part of the story is critical--the abrazo has to feel comfortable and natural and sustainable throughout the evening.

Here we disagree. The bend is quite a slight one (if both partners hinge then
it becomes almost invisible but it can definitely be felt) and it's a single hinge
at the point in the body designed to hinge - the hip joints. If you have adequate
core strength the torso remains straight and should remain straight. If a lumbar
curve is used to "straighten up" the chest (especially if you are aiming for solar
plexus contact) the body is stressed in a different and possibly harmful way.

The most relevant result of this way of connection is that both torsos are in
natural alignment with no stressful spinal curvatures. Both partners can twist
(and together) as much as standing upright yet retain the upper chest connection.

And to address your final critical comment:
Both partners too retain their own balance without dependence on each other -
the ladder metaphor is redundant - and dancing for hours is easily achievable.
This isn't a method I've heard of being taught - you have to discover for yourself.

One final point - fitness is key to this, your core needs naturally to be present
and engaged, Possibly this is the reason this came naturally to untaught
Argentines in Golden Age and does not to today's often sedentary bodies.
Plus teaching in classes is reductionist, addressing the widest audience
with the most universally achievable.

 

[Mr. Moustachio]

The first time you will step on your partner's feet, with the second dance you lean further forward

In my experience, when a non-dancing man first tries to walk, to avoid stepping on the woman's foot, he steps not straight ahead but slightly to the side. So, he ends up walking with a really wide stance.

If only it were that easy.

It is that easy. You don't need the cross or pivots or ochos or cross-system walking or ganchos or sacadas. Just walk, and when you want to change direction, use repeated cunitas/rock steps/balanceos.

 

[opendoor]

In my experience, when a non-dancing man first tries to walk, to avoid stepping on the woman's foot, he steps not straight ahead but slightly to the side..

Excuse me, you haven't read my CV, I was not a bloody beginner.

 

[Brummbaer]

In my experience, when a non-dancing man first tries to walk, to avoid stepping on the woman's foot, he steps not straight ahead but slightly to the side. So, he ends up walking with a really wide stance.

Not just 'non-dancing'. I watched a 'dancing' leader doing that whilst leading back ochos. Seemed to have got off his horse wearing a diaper. Maybe he just learnt at the milonga and didn't have a teacher to point out how it looked

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Here we disagree. The bend is quite a slight one (if both partners hinge then
it becomes almost invisible but it can definitely be felt) and it's a single hinge
at the point in the body designed to hinge - the hip joints. If you have adequate
core strength the torso remains straight and should remain straight.

If you do this, you retain that angle while you dance, which means your neck, head, upper spine is also canted forward. It depends on the sharpness of the angle, of course, but you do want your head straight. Of course, it's a shallow angle, so maybe this is not that noticeable. Core strength is helpful, yes.