ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Learning to walk correctly is the hard part!
Growing Old in Tango
- Thread starter itwillhappen
- Start date
This relates to a stance from an earlier time - suggest you seek Esther Gokahle
on the Interweb. Her observations are useful - her recommendations not always.
Your whole torso (and head) remains in-line while slightly hinged from the hip joints.
Here is a video of Ricardo Vidort dancing at Confiteria Ideal.
Its quality is poor but look beyond that. You can see the slight hinge
and he is not alone in this style.
I think I saw this link posted somewhere in the threads:
Here is Ricardo Vidort explaining a few things lately being discussed here:
1:00 minute mark - About the feel in Tango dancing
2:27 minute mark - Explaining the AT embrace
8:13 minute mark - The clip gives a clear view of how he starts the embrace
here is another clip of his. Right at the start there is another clear view of how he enters and starts the embrace:
Here is Ricardo Vidort explaining a few things lately being discussed here:
1:00 minute mark - About the feel in Tango dancing
2:27 minute mark - Explaining the AT embrace
8:13 minute mark - The clip gives a clear view of how he starts the embrace
here is another clip of his. Right at the start there is another clear view of how he enters and starts the embrace:
I wish there were other videos of him when he was 10 years younger than when this was shot, and 20 years younger. It would make a valid comparison points if the look changed when looking from outside.
From two clips in the previous post my observation is when entering the embrace he is more straight up. Then that slight lean enters the picture one or two steps after he starts moving. He does clearly mention the embrace as “/\” and not as “||”.
For the first eight or nine years I danced “/\” embrace. That’s because I was taught Apilado style embrace and leading with the chest first. My lean wasn’t excessive. It was the same thing, stand some inches apart from the follower. Be slightly forwarded weighted and lean till you meet the partner as she leans into you. My chest was either on top of toes or an inch forward.
In the first private the instructor followed me and then remarked “you lead well. you lead with chest, have you been taught to lead with the chest. That is how some people dance. ”. The remaining private was more about how to provide projection not from the chest but coming from the ground first and building up (my words of explaining what I then felt was the difference). Leading with chest requires that pressing upper chest against the partner.
Now my entering the embrace is similar to how he starts in the embrace. I don’t lean anymore from the hip upwards. I am connected with the follower physically in the upper chest area while my spine and head are positioned more naturally (any other way would create bad habit and aches) I have a slight disassociation hip upwards when I am doing simple walk. I don’t know if I will call that as a lean from hinge. My embrace position is what I feel comfortable and looking at the mirror/video it looks good.
Last night first tanda I went to a milonga I rarely attend. An unknown lady glanced with a smile, therefore my first tanda was with her. To my surprise, she probably was eight months pregnant. I didn’t see that coming until we were in embrace. Turns out she was a visitor. I had to struggle with the entrance for the first two songs. The feeling of a ball placed between the lower middle of the upper body was very unusual and I didn’t want to apply any pressure nor lean in around the upper chest area. For the last two songs I managed to find a suitable position where we had more contact in the upper chest on my right/her left that kind of worked better for me atleast. It was an interesting experience trying to continuously adjust around feeling of a ball placed between me and a partner.
Here I disagree with Ricardo slightly with his hand demonstration.
Put your hands together as he does and press the fingers together a little harder -
you will find that the hands tend to reverse bend a little no matter how you resist.,
rather like a real ladder does when loaded with someone climbing up it.
Now do the same again but first hold the hands vertically about 25mm (1 inch or so) apart
and hinge your hands in the palm where the hand naturally can bend until the fingers touch.
Now press the fingers together and see how easy it is to resist reverse bending. Even
if my hands straighten I can resist going any further. You have pre-engaged your muscles.
Subject to having an adequate and engaged core, the similar pre-stressing can occur
when hip(joint)-hingeing.
I am not sure from your description but suspect that you are regarding the hip(s)
as being the hips as they are measured so effectively you may be bending at
the waist. I have tried that as a solution only to reject it as being bad anatomically
and somewhat unsatisfactory even though it was effective for chest presence.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
I'm familiar with Gokahle's work, yes. Vidort, mmm, yeah, I know. I've seen most of his videos. His partner is not in front of him though, she's angled to the side, so their embrace is more of a "V" than a direct, chest-to-chest contact. Not saying it's wrong, it's Vidort, after all, just saying that it's not universal.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
It's all about connecting at the "third chakra". That's quite specific.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Almost no bend there, certainly not apilado. Here, too, he keeps his partner well to the side.
No, I don’t bend at the waist for the embrace. I have consciously eliminated that years back. I only stated I have a slight dissociation between hips below and waist above when walking or dancing. That gives that elusive feel of the tango “swing” when walking, rather than being stiff. I was told it is nice to have and I have experienced the difference when following a leader who has it. No one could explain how to achieve it. I have to discover the mechanics myself. You can’t tell about it looking for outside. Nothing to do with the leaning. It helps with excessive chest leading or depending only on the chest to convey information to the follower.
I like Ricardo Vidort’s dancing style. His embrace style with the waist up leaning/posture is not something I personally prefer. Yes I have seen some other famous pros and social dancers have similar posture. Hence my curiosity how he embraced when younger. Did it progressively change through the years.
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I was considering Ricardo Vidort - not really his partner. In the Solace extract Bailango posted
he stated that something along the lines he is dancing for his partner. He accommodates
whoever he is dancing with. The two clips of him with Myriam Pincen demonstrate that most
clearly - she has very diferent ideas of her own which she attempts to impose on others and
she certainly did that to Ricardo. It's visible that he was happy to dance with her nevertheless.
Thanks for the clarification. I agree with the slight disassociation when walking which
takes time and effort to find and incorporate. As you say it's almost invisible but a partner
can feel it. Some early teachers of mine used to talk about moving before you move but
never explained. This preparatory very slight twist was eventually my solution.
@Bailango
I like Ricardo Vidort’s dancing style. His embrace style with the waist up leaning/posture is not something I personally prefer. Yes I have seen some other famous pros and social dancers have similar posture. Hence my curiosity how he embraced when younger. Did it progressively change through the years.
I keep repeating that he does not bend at the waist, it's his entire torso which leans
by hinging (or pivoting if you like) at the hip joints. The aim is to connect at the upper
chest and always lead from that connection. Such a tilt preserves stress free
spinal alignment such that disassociation ability is preserved as is the ability to twist
(or spiral) while in the embrace. Bending at the waist is limiting and introduces other
bodily compensation and harmful postures.
Of course we can never know but I suspect that this embrace started from the young men's
practice of dancing with the even younger. Ricardo Vidort's younger practice partner seems
to have been Osvaldo Cartery - still slight and relatively agile when old. The younger one's
were the pretend female partners, I'll leave you to work out how that method of embracing
to dance might have evolved.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
By this thread I'm glad that I can still dance without painkillers. I hope it stays that way for a few more years, hey, I'm not going to grow up yet, I'll only get sixty soon.
And now I account DJ activities as a pension expenses.
And now I account DJ activities as a pension expenses.
Miradamiranda
Well-Known Member
pianistamediano
Forum Master
In the decades to come, I expect to see you as that one 90-year old milonguero in your local milongas with the best table in the place!By this thread I'm glad that I can still dance without painkillers. I hope it stays that way for a few more years, hey, I'm not going to grow up yet, I'll only get sixty soon.
And now I account DJ activities as a pension expenses.
