Guardia Vieja, Tango Milonguero, and Tango Salon as styles of music

[opendoor]

..Read the books!

Books aren't necessarily truer or more authentic simply because they're made of paper. Paper doesn't blush, either. The general problem is that very little has been published on the topics raised. AI is a statistical method; the smaller the data set, the more prominent the outliers become. I doubt whether books published independently and in small quantities, such as Benzecry Sabá's, have already been recorded. We should try.

Furthermore, the AI also seems overly ingratiating and eager to please. Recently, I asked about the difference between "subjective" and "intentional." The AI told me they were completely different concepts of reality. After I corrected and criticized it three times, the AI finally admitted that they were identical descriptions.

 

[opendoor]

That's true, you'll realize that vocabulary, figuras, combinations are totally irrelevant:

Put on a random piece of non-tango music, dance at least 80% tango vocabulary, observe how you change the way you dance..

...back-ochos and media luna (tango) to the Spanish Harlem Orchestra (salsa dura) work fine.

Put on a random piece of tango music, dance at least 80% non-tango vocabulary, again observe..

...dile que no (salsa) to Orquestra típica d'Arienzo (tango del club) also works fine.

 

[brujo]

To be clear that was the notebookllm ( Google’s source summary tool ) summary of the second book by Joaquin. I’m just in chapter 3 of it so can’t verify completely.

 

[Brummbaer]

Books aren't necessarily truer or more authentic simply because they're made of paper. Paper doesn't blush, either

blogs aren't scientific sources, but rather opinions, assumptions, and distortions.

Whilst true in this case, because the books are a recent 'summary' of other information by the author. 'Books', or written material including music, some recordings, supplemented by photos and a rare video or memories, are all we have for some early years. Blogs can just be recorded memories, or someone else's potentially biased summary of the scene. Aren't we all biased observers? But what are your 'scientific' sources? Can we repeat the experiment?

I don't trust AI models with 'facts' versus its hallucinations, and that it can be led astray. Hardcopy material (including recordings) probably has greater longevity than computer files, but essentially we're paying the author to summarise (fact check) for us. Of course, not all books or recorded information tell the truth, and some misinterpret. Sure, you can dismiss their 'expertise' and claim greater authority, or better interpretation, even intuition, but do you have anything better?

If you want the full, summarised, picture: read the books! Or publish your own interpretation for us.

 

[TTanguero]

But if you advocate for such individualization, it's difficult to maintain a certain coherence on the dance floor. Therefore, your statement surprises me, because you've always demanded more commitment than I have, or am I mistaken, @TTanguero?

I value good floorcraft skills, but that is about dancing within the couple's own space, remaining within the ronda, and advancing when the couple ahead does. I do love it when the whole floor moves as one, but that happens through responding to the phrases and A/B sections, not to some artificial idea of matching style to year.

 

[Brummbaer]

I value good floorcraft skills, but that is about dancing within the couple's own space, remaining within the ronda, and advancing when the couple ahead does.

It's about paying attention to those around, not everyone going off on their individual journey, eherever that may lead them.

but that happens through responding to the phrases and A/B sections, not to some artificial idea of matching style to year.

Does it matter if you consider it 'artificial' if it helps someone? Of course, we can also find eras, and regions, of popular music (Merseybeat, Manchester, Northern Soul, etc) - and 'dance' styles of those eras. Is AT music different? Perhaps you have some AT musicality presentation to offer?

 

[opendoor]

..but that happens through responding to the phrases and A/B sections,

I fundamentally reject such a narrowing of tango, TTanguero . It's a disempowerment of the music to recommend focusing on the strong beats or adhering to the phrases. Unfortunately, this is already happening at many relevant events. It's no coincidence that a member of DF spoke of a "zombie walk." I feel vindicated; such restrictions attract unmusical and untalented dancers. They find shelter in the excuse that this is how it's supposed to be. And I publicly accused Melina of this already 15 years ago.

..not to some artificial idea of matching style to year.

What you're currently dismissing as "artificial" is something a dancer should be able to feel and grasp intuitively. Anyone who needs a rational approach to styles or musicality workshops should probably give up the hobby. And once again, I must express my incomprehension as to why you openly expose and even defend such views. Do you also make a virtue out of necessity?

 

[Rabbit]

What you're currently dismissing as "artificial" is something a dancer should be able to feel and grasp intuitively.

I think we should try and distinguish what's actually intuitive from consciously or subconsciously copying examples. I believe an intuitive response is how a dancer with no exposure to the tango scene would react to the music. This is part of the reason I propose and practice the music/dance genre crossover exercises to break habitual patterns.

 

[Brummbaer]

I believe an intuitive response is how a dancer with no exposure to the tango scene would react to the music.

Is that really a good plan? Remember that Zouk dancer in New York. Admittedly the biggest problems were the social aspects in a milonga which considers itself 'elite'.

Also, some of us have little, or nothing intuitive, until someone tells us what it is. We're not all born musicians.

I don't care what methods people use, or their simple aide memoire - from counting section structure, recognising orchestras and their era, equating the style to lyrical, rhyhmical, etc, or earth, air, wind and fire. I wouldn't dismiss their approach whilst we're all learning. The point is that they're starting to learn musicality. And I don't consider free expression a good starter for the discipline of the ronda. Too many nuisances lacking floorcraft around already in some milongas

 

[pianistamediano]

... equating the style to lyrical, rhyhmical, etc, or earth, air, wind and fire.

No, didn't you hear Chan Park? Tango is Zen!

 

[Rabbit]

I don't care what methods people use, or their simple aide memoire - from counting section structure, recognising orchestras and their era, equating the style to lyrical, rhyhmical, etc, or earth, air, wind and fire. I wouldn't dismiss their approach whilst we're all learning. The point is that they're starting to learn musicality.

However it seems these teaching methods are ineffective as most of the dancers just look the same no matter what they're dancing to, and can't clearly mark phrasing.

 

[pianistamediano]

However it seems these teaching methods are ineffective as most of the dancers just look the same no matter what they're dancing to, and can't clearly mark phrasing.

To be fair, the formative years in tango for a beginner, especially a leader, can literally stretch to a decade or more, depending on one's motivation, starting point, access to role models/actually good teachers, et cetera...

And it's made worse because most people on average don't really have much interest in going beyond hitting the beats right; there's definitely a lot more people that are way more interested in other things, like the embrace, or interesting movements.

And, I think, training musicality is not a trivial task at all, and there aren't that many teachers who are both willing and able to teach that — pair that with how one needs to put in sustained effort over a long period of time for (perceived) smaller gains relative to what one gains from classes/privates in one movement or another... Yeah, not looking that good.

It's easier to build muscle memory for most tango movements than to train one's hearing, listening and expand one's musical sensitivity to more than just the surface. I don't think non-basic music theory is strictly necessary for tango musicality, but even the basics are a stumbling block for people too.

This is the part where I'm a bit conflicted, because while I don't consciously register modulation or changes in tempo or tone colour, I have all that information stored in my subconscious already, so I can feel all of it. And that's where my problem lies, because "feeling" music might work well, but only up to some point, and is generally limited by one's innate and learned ability and knowledge.

It may very well be the case that that's enough for people, but then it's also the cause for a lot of problems in musicality classes/getting less than positive feedback about musicality. Over the years, I've encountered plenty of people who balk about consciously thinking about music, despite wanting to improve musicality for one reason or another.

 

[Brummbaer]

However it seems these teaching methods are ineffective as most of the dancers just look the same no matter what they're dancing to, and can't clearly mark phrasing.

Dancers who progress, who become intersted in AT music, do change. But, as this thread discusses, it's about learning musicality and some do want to know, to improve, and adjust their dance. There isn't one single method for us. It's a long task. There's no quick 'download'. Yes, I agree some go round doing the same thing whatever the music - even with some years dancing. But I guess the great AT dancers of old didn't have 'musicality' seminars (our quick fix post-era), just immersion training in the culture and listening to the music, sometimes live.

But, clearly, if you dismiss all these teaching methods, and suggestions, and aide memoire, others use, then you need to promote yours with some video or book. If it works for you so far, that's good.

 

[itwillhappen]

But I guess the great AT dancers of old didn't have 'musicality' seminars (our quick fix post-era), just immersion training in the culture and listening to the music, sometimes live.

What "immersion"? I think that's a myth. Listening to music was expensive (live), abrasive wearing down (shellacs) or by chance (radio); and people worked hard during the day. It's nothing like today's leisure time: smartphones, headphones, unlimited tango anytime, video tutorials, all that almost for everyone and almost for free.

 

[Brummbaer]

What "immersion"?

Living there!

I think that's a myth. Listening to music was expensive (live), abrasive wearing down (shellacs) or by chance (radio); and people worked hard during the day. It's nothing like today's leisure time: smartphones, headphones, unlimited tango anytime, video tutorials, all that almost for everyone and almost for free.

So, they had no time for dance? And no time for additional 'musicality' training. But they could dance to the music.