Guided Practica

[tangomonkey]

The practica is there for lead an follower to practice... anything in tango. That means, its OK to flub, teach, provide feedback, and work things out. This is joint learning between lead and follow. It's expected that both would have respect and honest/good feedback for each other... i.e. "Did I do that right?" "How did I feel when I did that?" "Did I knock you off balance?" "That didn't work, let's try this..." etc, etc, etc.

Very well put! But the follows here seem to be saying that ideal environment you describe is rare...

 

[bastet]

Unless you know the person fairly well, unsolicited feedback is risky (at best). Some of the women here have already posted, that's why they stopped going to practicas.

...While most problems are not exactly 50/50, they usually are not 100/0 either. I think things work out best when both people are willing to work on improving their own parts, and focus less on what their partner needs to do better/differently.

fully agree with you there dchester, which is one reason I happen to like guided practicas. If you can't agree, there's a sort of paid referee there for you.

 

[Ampster]

Very well put! But the follows here seem to be saying that ideal environment you describe is rare...

Originally Posted by dchester
Unless you know the person fairly well, unsolicited feedback is risky (at best). Some of the women here have already posted, that's why they stopped going to practicas.

...While most problems are not exactly 50/50, they usually are not 100/0 either. I think things work out best when both people are willing to work on improving their own parts, and focus less on what their partner needs to do better/differently.

fully agree with you there dchester, which is one reason I happen to like guided practicas. If you can't agree, there's a sort of paid referee there for you.

Totally agree. That's why I said that the host/instructor jumps in and gives feedback when something is noticed and is asked.

It's the (de facto) function of the guider/host to balance-off the feedback. In any case, a guided practica is good because there is purpose and direction, albeit indirect, in this environment.

 

[Zoopsia59]

That means, its OK to flub, teach, provide feedback, and work things out.

I'm in agreement on all that except the "teach". It is not ok to assume the role of teacher to another person who may not acknowledge you as such. It IS ok to assume the role of student and ask for "instruction".

There is a very big difference between working out a problem together and giving each other feedback from that perspective vs correcting the other person with unsolicited instruction as though you are so obviously superior and in a position to do so. The only person who should approach another person as a teacher is someone that the other person already acknowledges to be their teacher.

We are all there to learn, and that's what should be the motivation... practicing for one's own learning.... not being there to correct others.

It's really not that complicated, but for some reason, on the tango floor, many leaders can't seem to get the difference (maybe followers do it as well, but I'm usually dancing with a leader) It's not a gender thing, because I've had female leaders be just as obnoxious. (in fact, one person that I will NEVER dance with again to lead or follow is female)

As Bastet says, too often the "correction" from a leader is instruction on how to compensate for his bad leading, rather than any useful feedback on following.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Zopsia59 and Bastet. I guess there is not much point in going to a practica if leaders take on the (unasked for) role of teacher. That's not why you're there. How do you practice? Or are lessons and dancing in a milonga all you need at your level?

My own personal strategy is to work on fundamental technique things on my own. When dancing with a partner, I expect to be practicing following a leader. The best practice for actual following is dancing with leaders you don't know well or who do moves you are not as familiar with.

I also like dancing with beginners so that I can refine my technique in the simple moves. Sometimes when dancing with someone new, or with someone who throws in a lit of fancy stuff, or unexpected stuff, I don't have much concentration left over for focusing on refining technique.. I'm too busy trying to just follow smoothly and keep up. When dancing with a beginner who does little more than walking and ochos, I can really concentrate on fixing the little quirks that that need fixing in my basics. I can also practice fitting in adornos if I'm not so busy just trying to figure out and execute the led steps.

Basically, what I'm saying is that I can find something to work on no matter who I'm dancing with... it might be an exercise in maintaining my own posture and technique against someone who is an aggressive arm leader, and there's value in that practice also. It might be practicing smooth show moves that look good with someone who is fancy. It might be getting the proper muscles working in my pelvis just walking with a total newbie. Or it might be practicing following the unexpected (being ready for anything) by dancing with someone I don't know.

There's something to be learned from every partner, no matter who they are, and no matter whether they say anything at all.

 

[v22TTC]

Bastet and Zoopsia: Sorry to hear that... I keep forgetting about things like that: for whatever reason (probably, aptly enough, a sex demographic of more men than women...), the folks round here (especially the leaders) are as nice as pie when in Embrace Mode (though you wouldn't want anything to do with them when they're not), so that wouldn't be the case here... if that's any consolation at all... and you're lucky to have access to private lessons at any rate....

I was imagining that at least one of the respected advanced students might be up for doing the assistance/guidance (since the teachers can't be bothered) - which I can see is a necessary role.

jfm: I really don't want to run my own practica: I just want to be able to practice stuff that I need to work on with a variety of real partners, which doesn't happen in class, I refuse to do in a milonga - and there's nothing else available, and nobody else wants to set up a practica in this major city, so it looks like I'll have to....

DB: Thanks for the answers and good wishes.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Just wanted to say, I cannot agree more with Zoopsia59 in this thread. Thanks for writing.

 

[dchester]

I'm in agreement on all that except the "teach". It is not ok to assume the role of teacher to another person who may not acknowledge you as such. It IS ok to assume the role of student and ask for "instruction".

There is a very big difference between working out a problem together and giving each other feedback from that perspective vs correcting the other person with unsolicited instruction as though you are so obviously superior and in a position to do so. The only person who should approach another person as a teacher is someone that the other person already acknowledges to be their teacher.

We are all there to learn, and that's what should be the motivation... practicing for one's own learning.... not being there to correct others.

It's really not that complicated, but for some reason, on the tango floor, many leaders can't seem to get the difference (maybe followers do it as well, but I'm usually dancing with a leader) It's not a gender thing, because I've had female leaders be just as obnoxious. (in fact, one person that I will NEVER dance with again to lead or follow is female)

As Bastet says, too often the "correction" from a leader is instruction on how to compensate for his bad leading, rather than any useful feedback on following.

I agree with all of this, and as a leader, I can absolutely confirm that some followers do have the same issue.

One of my favorites was a follower explaining to me how I was doing a colgada wrong because she was going off-axis.

 

[Zoopsia59]

One of my favorites was a follower explaining to me how I was doing a colgada wrong because she was going off-axis.

One of my favorites was the leader who said I shouldn't be taking a sidestep (despite his body movement pivoting to the side) because he "hadn't moved his foot yet".

 

[bastet]

Zopsia59 and Bastet. I guess there is not much point in going to a practica if leaders take on the (unasked for) role of teacher. That's not why you're there. How do you practice? Or are lessons and dancing in a milonga all you need at your level?

No- I would say I need practice too, but I tend to practice what comes up in private lessons for me.

That tends to boils down to 3 things- control/grounding of the standing leg, posture and working the correct muscles in my abs and pelvis, good leg extension (a never ending battle for me).

In some ways doing this correctly is also down to how the leader dances. For example, there tends to be not much point in making heavy use of my standing leg when dancing with a beginner or I'll just drag him in to steps, so it's a reverse lesson for me sometimes (ie, how to recognize when I need to kill certain elements of my dance off with a person).

Most of these things I can work on in various degrees just by dancing with varied partners and if the person seems nice or amicable, I might tell him what I am dong and ask if I can change certain things and ask how they may differ or what feels better to him.

 

[bastet]

One of my favorites was the leader who said I shouldn't be taking a sidestep (despite his body movement pivoting to the side) because he "hadn't moved his foot yet".

*doh*

 

[dchester]

One of my favorites was the leader who said I shouldn't be taking a sidestep (despite his body movement pivoting to the side) because he "hadn't moved his foot yet".

I'm picturing him explaining it. With side steps, you lead with the foot. It's those other moves that are led with the chest.

 

[Ampster]

Originally Posted by Ampster
That means, its OK to flub, teach, provide feedback, and work things out.

I'm in agreement on all that except the "teach". It is not ok to assume the role of teacher to another person who may not acknowledge you as such. It IS ok to assume the role of student and ask for "instruction".

There is a very big difference between working out a problem together and giving each other feedback from that perspective vs correcting the other person with unsolicited instruction as though you are so obviously superior and in a position to do so. The only person who should approach another person as a teacher is someone that the other person already acknowledges to be their teacher.

We are all there to learn, and that's what should be the motivation... practicing for one's own learning.... not being there to correct others.

It's really not that complicated, but for some reason, on the tango floor, many leaders can't seem to get the difference (maybe followers do it as well, but I'm usually dancing with a leader) It's not a gender thing, because I've had female leaders be just as obnoxious. (in fact, one person that I will NEVER dance with again to lead or follow is female)

As Bastet says, too often the "correction" from a leader is instruction on how to compensate for his bad leading, rather than any useful feedback on following.

I agree with you on the "teach" part. What you wrote is very similar to what I had in mind. I just didn't know how to frame it (at the time). Thank you for that

 

[ant]

So, I'm wondering what would happen in a guided practica?

I have always thought of a guided practica (as opposed to a practica with a teacher present) as an opportunity to practise what was previously taught in a specific lesson or series of lessons taken by the teacher/(s) present. Therefore the teacher/(s) will announce before hand what they will be giving guidance or help on and they expect the attendees to stick fairly rigidly to that/those topic/(s) when seeking help from them.

 

[ant]

It is not ok to assume the role of teacher to another person who may not acknowledge you as such. It IS ok to assume the role of student and ask for "instruction".
....The only person who should approach another person as a teacher is someone that the other person already acknowledges to be their teacher.
We are all there to learn, and that's what should be the motivation... practicing for one's own learning.... not being there to correct others.

Sorry Zoops I don't altogether agree with you.

The most successful and well attended practicas I know have a big flavour of the following.

The more experienced leaders and followers in the community attend. They spend about half the time practising with their preferred or prearranged partner and the other half with the less experienced members of the community that are present.

These more experienced dancers are not teachers but they attend to give the less experienced dancers the opportunity to dance with experienced partners and to give them advise and feedback in regard to what they have found when dancing with the less experienced dancers.