Hitting a plateau, need help clearing something up.

[Dave Bailey]

And thanks Dave, you hit on a bunch of points that I was still a little unsure of, I just wanted to be more sure before trying to push our training in that direction. I was pretty confident that I was right about my instincts, but I still wanted to confirm it with some more seasoned dancers first.

Well all my advice boils down to is "Go with your instincts, but go harder and stronger with them than you are now."

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

I always had a deep love for dancing in general, which I guess isn't always so common in younger guys (wrong board to post this on I know, I just mean in general), this is just the first time I found a particular dance which really just clicks for me in every way. It is like pure passion which is all that I am about.

In short I am already addicted to it, it gives me the same feeling alot of music does. She might as well have asked me to stop reading books or to stop listening to classical music.

I have been with her for about 5 years now so it is definitely a comitted relationship, and she knows me well enough to know that I won't give up on something that I truly love. Tango, like you said, has very quickly become quite special to me.

There are far worse indiscretions that a boyfriend/husband can commit, although I definitely understand her intense discomfort with my love for the dance, which to her must almost surely look like the love of another person.

In short, it is the connection and love of the dance which compels me to continue, and both her and I both know that I will never quit. She is trying very hard to accept who I am and I must say she is doing better, so my hope is that she will eventually come around completely.

I don't at all wish to lose her, but again I won't quit doing something I love. I will however, do my best to give her all the time she needs to slowly get more comfortable with it. One way or another dance will be a regular part of my life someday.

Good luck to you! Hope your couple will overcome the problem.

 

[gregolam]

Good luck to you! Hope your couple will overcome the problem.

Thanks Lilly so do I! You have no idea how hard it is to try to learn Tango with 2 hours every other week!

 

[Mladenac]

I hope you will not need this article:
http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/IdentifyingLosers.html

 

[gregolam]

I hope you will not need this article:
http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/IdentifyingLosers.html

All right she's not THAT bad, although some of the things mentioned in the article did give me a chuckle. I didn't mean to mischaracterize her though, I love her and I am sticking with her until she decides not to stick with me.

She just happened to have met me back when I was more friendly with the ladies than a girlfriend or wife might be comfortable with, before we started dating that is. To this day the majority of my closest friends are women, so she has always had a little difficulty getting completely comfortable with that. Especially now with the dancing, so I can understand where she is coming from. We'll see how it goes though. Thanks again for the support guys.

 

[Mladenac]

All right she's not THAT bad, although some of the things mentioned in the article did give me a chuckle. I didn't mean to mischaracterize her though, I love her and I am sticking with her until she decides not to stick with me.

She just happened to have met me back when I was more friendly with the ladies than a girlfriend or wife might be comfortable with, before we started dating that is. To this day the majority of my closest friends are women, so she has always had a little difficulty getting completely comfortable with that. Especially now with the dancing, so I can understand where she is coming from. We'll see how it goes though. Thanks again for the support guys.

You naughty boy.

I hope you will improve your relationship so you can enjoy dancing tango.
It takes at least 6h per week to improve your dancing, with various partners, naturally.

I have a lesson 2h per week, and 1 milonga and 1 practica.
And I also need to practice by my own what I learn at classes and what I learn at the workshops.

 

[newbie]

We only have your part of the story but the natural conclusion of your post is that you're a good leader and she is a bad follower. Let her go on her own in milongas, the advanced guys will tame her. If you start trying to explain to her how she is supposed to follow then she can always reply that you're a beginner.

the teachers didnt seem to mention anything to her

Oh and you have bad teachers too.

 

[Dave Bailey]

We only have your part of the story but the natural conclusion of your post is that you're a good leader and she is a bad follower.

You would be amazed, astonished and depressed at how many people learning tango think it's all about the patterns, even after they've been learning it for a looooong time. For example, I've recently encountered quite a few people - leaders and followers - coming from another venue, who've spent literally years learning nothing but patterns. They spend a lot of time and effort learning these intricate patterns.

(On the plus side, that venue provides me with a steady stream of custom, people migrating from them to me, so I can't complain too much.)

So I wouldn't say "she's a bad follower", just that she's clearly in "pattern" mode of learning. She needs to understand that patterns are useless.

Let her go on her own in milongas, the advanced guys will tame her.

That's a little harsh. She might simply quit.

If you start trying to explain to her how she is supposed to follow then she can always reply that you're a beginner.

Yeah.. I wouldn't try to explain, I'd simply try to lead. If you lead a step or pivot and she doesn't follow, then she needs to learn to follow.

Oh and you have bad teachers too.

Actually, I think this may be the root of the problem. If the teachers are doing nothing but patterns, then it's not the students' fault for thinking that the dance is all about patterns.

 

[Joe]

Sounds a bit to me like she's following the patterns, rather than following the movements. This is probably why she finds dancing with the "advanced" leads nerve-wracking--she's trying to follow movements, but her repetoire is only patterns.

 

[Peaches]

Sounds a bit to me like she's following the patterns, rather than following the movements. This is probably why she finds dancing with the "advanced" leads nerve-wracking--she's trying to follow movements, but her repetoire is only patterns.

Yes. But it also makes me think the OP is stuck in leading mostly patterns, without really ever taking them apart and mixing up the individual pieces. Also, AFAIK we're talking about beginning (<1 year) leader and follower...together...with limited instruction...so progress isn't going to be happening all that fast anyway. (Probably) There are enough mistakes on both sides.

 

[gregolam]

I absolutely think the problem is equally due to my being a beginner leader as well, sorry if I didn't adequately convey that. We are both learning remarkably well despite the limitations we have in terms of how often we can practice. I just noticed that while we can do the sequences just fine, my leading looks remarkably deficient when compared to the more advanced guys out there.

Like some of you have mentioned we have both just mostly been taught patterns, and I just had a really big gut feeling about what it was that me and her were not really being exposed to. I think it's hard to ever get the full picture from just one teacher, no matter how good they are I think they will always be stuck in their own ways, unwittingly underdeveloping their students in one aspect of the dance or another. That is why it is so great to be able to come to this forum and get a load of valuable opinions.

In a week or two when I can make it out to practice with my partner again I am going to approach it as an experimental practice session and try out some of the exercises you guys suggested. She also suspects that this is an issue (especially after dancing with the other advanced guys) and she trusts that I do my research, so I think it will turn out well.

 

[Peaches]

I absolutely think the problem is equally due to my being a beginner leader as well, sorry if I didn't adequately convey that. We are both learning remarkably well despite the limitations we have in terms of how often we can practice. I just noticed that while we can do the sequences just fine, my leading looks remarkably deficient when compared to the more advanced guys out there.

Like some of you have mentioned we have both just mostly been taught patterns, and I just had a really big gut feeling about what it was that me and her were not really being exposed to. I think it's hard to ever get the full picture from just one teacher, no matter how good they are I think they will always be stuck in their own ways, unwittingly underdeveloping their students in one aspect of the dance or another. That is why it is so great to be able to come to this forum and get a load of valuable opinions.

In a week or two when I can make it out to practice with my partner again I am going to approach it as an experimental practice session and try out some of the exercises you guys suggested. She also suspects that this is an issue (especially after dancing with the other advanced guys) and she trusts that I do my research, so I think it will turn out well.

Well, take heart in the idea that, as you've said, you're both beginners. Of course you're going to look deficient compared to more advanced leaders...you're supposed to at this point!

To be fair to her, following is its own special skill. I don't just mean technique (of movement), but learning to wait and trust can take time.

 

[Angel HI]

To be fair to her, following is its own special skill. I don't just mean technique (of movement), but learning to wait and trust can take time.

"Follow" is the most difficult part of dance, period... all dance. And, it is equally as important for guys and girls (something often not considered).

 

[gregolam]

Well, take heart in the idea that, as you've said, you're both beginners. Of course you're going to look deficient compared to more advanced leaders...you're supposed to at this point!

To be fair to her, following is its own special skill. I don't just mean technique (of movement), but learning to wait and trust can take time.

She's a wonderful partner really, learns very quickly and does trust me (we've known eachother many years). Learning does take time but it also requires that your intentions be well directed, and I just don't think either one of us knew what we should have been doing rather than just practicing moves and sequences.

Also don't worry, it is almost impossible to dishearten me once I've set out to do something. Deficiencies only make me work harder! Fortunately my partner is the same way too.

 

[Peaches]

She's a wonderful partner really, learns very quickly and does trust me (we've known eachother many years).

Well, that's not exactly how I meant "trust." I mean, it takes time and skill for a follower to be able to trust herself...to let yourself and your body go where you think you're being asked to go, even when it doesn't make sense to you or isn't familiar. To not second guess everything. To turn off your brain and just, well...follow.

It also takes time to learn to trust your leader. Not in a "knowing each other for years" sort of way (although you gotta be able to trust that the guy isn't going to be icky)...trusting that he can "take care of you" on the floor. Not running you into other people or things, for a start. But also that he's not going to hurt you, or has sufficient skill to help you when you need help, or is there and waiting for you to complete your movements just as the follower has to wait for the lead. There's also being able to trust that he can "cover" when mistakes are made.