How Are Your Lessons Going? Thread 3

[ChaCha1]

“you’re the one in charge of floorcraft - why do *I* need to know the direction we’re going, or where we should be facing when we stop? You constantly tell me to just follow you. You’ve said that even though this is memorized choreo, I can’t dance it as if I’m alone - I still have to wait on your lead.”

Because this isn't floorcraft it is a routine and the follow should know their direction. I don't know if this applies in standard, but with rhythm and smooth, the follow must know were they are on the floor and the direction they are heading. Perhaps not in bronze, but in open the follow must understand direction. We are apart way to much to assume the lead will always control the direction. Because the lead goes back and forth, the follow may actually be the lead at times. However, when connected the follow needs to respond to their lead and not jump to the next choreographed move.

Later, I told him that I want to learn how to DANCE - not how to be a pro/am student whose dance teacher carries her around the floor and makes her look good even though she herself doesn’t know much.

One is that you want to be able to do all of your part as follower while still following the leader's lead.

I agree with Warren on this one. I think this is a solid interpretation of a good follow dancer. It applies to both social and competition settings. PnP, this is one of the hard parts, you have to know your part like there isn't a partner, but have to respond to leads like you don't know what is coming next.

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

PNP is at a FORMER FADS that is now independent.

Correct! Studio Mgr bought out of the FADS franchise quite a few years ago. (Although yes, they still operate in many of the same ways.)

 

[IndyLady]

Sigh. I was less bothered by this than I would have been a couple years ago. I’ve grown accustomed to him assuming I know much more than I actually know, and I’m no longer reluctant to interrupt him & ask questions.

I will posit that this might also be a teaching style, since he is Eastern European. We tend to take things at face value here and people tend to be semi-nice to each other (including at your studio, which is not a comp factory per se), so sometimes the harsh boot camp methods from the system they came through manifest themselves in weird ways. ("What do you mean you don't know that?!?!"). Just food for thought.

I asked him what he thought about me maybe limiting myself to just ONE style (smooth), now that the layers of technique require so much more work. He looked baffled. “Why?”
“Well..because then I could focus my time and energy into improving that one style.”
“But WHY?”
“Well…I mean…so my progress in smooth would be quicker, and more solid.”
“How?” he demanded. “In what way?”
“All of it! The footwork, patterns, technique, body movement….”
He looked at me skeptically. “Do you have a deadline? Are you competing in the world championship next week?”
I laughed. “Of course not!”
He shrugged. “Then what’s your hurry to improve just in smooth? And stop making any progress in rhythm?”
I didn’t know how to answer that. So I asked, “why do you feel so strongly that I should do MORE than just one style?”
He looked exasperated. “Because you CAN! You have the ability - you’re at the right time in your life - you have the physical health needed - why would you limit yourself?”
I challenged him, “are you sure it’s not because YOU would get bored, if you had to teach me only one style?”
He shook his head. “No. Not at all. I have several students who only want to do one style. And that’s fine - if they don’t like anything else, then I’m happy to teach them what they want. But…don’t you LIKE more than one style?”
“Yes!” I said. “Of course! Except Latin. I don’t really care about learning Latin. And I have loved studying standard this year, but I have really missed doing smooth with you. I feel like I’ve spread myself too thin. I can’t do it all.”
He nodded. “Of course it’s up to you, but *I* think you should keep learning silver rhythm and smooth.”
“Earlier this week, you told me I should go back to bronze smooth.”
He made a face. “I was joking. No WAY you’re going back to bronze. That door is CLOSED, permanently.”

Yep, he knows what he's talking about.

Later, I told him that I want to learn how to DANCE - not how to be a pro/am student whose dance teacher carries her around the floor and makes her look good even though she herself doesn’t know much.

No surprise coming from me, but social dancing will help enormously with this. Most of your partners cannot simultaneously carry you around and make you look good. You will learn a ton about what you do and don't get from a lead and how to hold and move yourself.

Because this isn't floorcraft it is a routine and the follow should know their direction. I don't know if this applies in standard, but with rhythm and smooth, the follow must know were they are on the floor and the direction they are heading. Perhaps not in bronze, but in open the follow must understand direction. We are apart way to much to assume the lead will always control the direction. Because the lead goes back and forth, the follow may actually be the lead at times. However, when connected the follow needs to respond to their lead and not jump to the next choreographed move.


I agree with Warren on this one. I think this is a solid interpretation of a good follow dancer. It applies to both social and competition settings. PnP, this is one of the hard parts, you have to know your part like there isn't a partner, but have to respond to leads like you don't know what is coming next.

All of this, 1000%.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

One is that you want to be able to do all of your part as follower while still following the leader's lead.

Okay, this has been quoted in two different threads, and rather than leave well enough alone, I feel the need to clarify and maybe get myself into trouble.

By this, I do not mean "do all of your choreography as follower while still following the leader's lead". I mean, "do all of those things beyond and without being carried around, including following the leader's lead to the utmost."

I mean, clearing the right hip and leg in the natural turn to permit maximal body flight, shape, and body swing - on both you and partner. I mean, using the hip swing lead by partner to roll from the ball to the toe of the right foot, then pivoting on the point of that toe before rolling back through the ball to the heel and pushing out of the heel with a toe release while still moving the other foot back until the foot placement is led, in the feather finish. I mean, shaping out to counterbalance and inspire partner, then when he leads more shape, shaping even more, to the maximum he is allowing.

So by "all of your part as follower", I mean doing the maximum of technique and artistry permitted by the lead - not just the choreography.

Christine used to do "ladies' seminars" that I was told covered this kind of thing. Maybe she still does. (Except, she wouldn't call it a pivot on that right toe; that's just my attempt at describing it, but you have to see it to understand it fully.)

 

[ChaCha1]

By this, I do not mean "do all of your choreography as follower while still following the leader's lead". I mean, "do all of those things beyond and without being carried around, including following the leader's lead to the utmost."

I mean, clearing the right hip and leg in the natural turn to permit maximal body flight, shape, and body swing - on both you and partner. I mean, using the hip swing lead by partner to roll from the ball to the toe of the right foot, then pivoting on the point of that toe before rolling back through the ball to the heel and pushing out of the heel with a toe release while still moving the other foot back until the foot placement is led, in the feather finish. I mean, shaping out to counterbalance and inspire partner, then when he leads more shape, shaping even more, to the maximum he is allowing

So by "all of your part as follower", I mean doing the maximum of technique and artistry permitted by the lead - not just the choreography.

That is exactly what I thought you meant and also what I meant.

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

social dancing will help enormously with this. Most of your partners cannot simultaneously carry you around and make you look good. You will learn a ton about what you do and don't get from a lead and how to hold and move yourself.

But … are you suggesting I’ll have to practice social dancing for years - that it’s not possible to master everything immediately?

(Of course I’m kidding. And you make an excellent point.)

do all of those things beyond and without being carried around, including following the leader's lead to the utmost.

doing the maximum of technique and artistry permitted by the lead - not just the choreography.

Yes. Exactly. That’s what I meant when I told Pro I wanted to learn how to dance. I didn’t mean “instead of” being a pro/am student; I meant being “a different kind” of pro/am student. (He knew what I meant.)

Going through different stages and phases during your dance journey is natural, I think. <Snip> It's an individual journey, not like anyone else's. And I've found it's ok to focus and bring the lens into one thing for a while, and then widen the lens after a period of time.

Yessssssss. This is reassuring. You’ve given similar advice before, but apparently I need to keep hearing it so it’ll sink in! I keep falling into the OCD/Type A mindset of “I must get on a certain track and proceed full speed ahead along that track no matter what” - and that is NOT the correct mindset for me to experience joy while learning to dance.

That was my immediate reaction to your first paragraph. But then I realized that some of that paragraph might apply to showcase choreography where you are by yourself and not in dance position.

Nope - this was not when we were doing apart work. My comment to him was solely in the context of this particular showcase choreo, in sections where we are in either closed dance hold or shadow position.

After reading the vehement responses here on DF, I realized that my failure to include the full context of my comment to Pro led to some significant misunderstandings of what I meant.

It related back to a specific argument we’d had at a previous lesson, in which I’d tripped him by curving to the left, instead of going straight ahead as he was trying to lead. I said, “but we always curve left at this part!” He said no, just because we always HAD curved left at this part, didn’t mean we always WOULD curve left at this part. We had switched to a different ballroom, so the floor length and width were different, the imaginary “audience” was positioned along a different wall, and several times he changed the direction of our movement from what I was accustomed to and thus expecting. He lectured me on how I should not be expecting anything - that it was my job to follow his lead, not decide for myself which direction to move.

Therefore, when he fussed at me about not following the correct trajectory when I danced the routine by myself, my response of, “you’re the one in charge of floorcraft - why do *I* need to know the direction we’re going, or where we should be facing when we stop?” was simply me being a sarcastic brat and throwing his earlier words back in his face.

I absolutely do not question why Follows should know syllabus figures or routines and be able to execute them fully on their own. My comment to Pro was merely in this very narrow, showcase-specific context.

 

[joy]

We foxtrot-ed, and then after he said: “Follow!”
Me: “I was following! Did you see how crowded the dance floor is?”
I followed him through a group class and another lesson.
“You did not wait for me.”

So we have been working on “weighted connection” and it feels really good. But also… it’s funny how ballroom lessons swings back and forth. I’ve spent all this time learning to be on my foot. To be balanced. But now… now, he wants me to give him my weight.

There’s one pattern in Foxtrot where I am in front of him, our upper bodies away from each other and I’m connected by just his hand on my left forearm. I’m not even holding on to him, so I rely on him not letting go… and he wants me to lean further away.
Him: “It feels very safe. Like you don’t trust me.”
Me: “I don’t!”

I kinda want reassurances that he has been working out!

But when it works, it feels so good. The dancing feels so good, like there is this constant stretching away and like a rubber band I’m back and spinning and then we reconnect again and stretch away.

Smooth feels so good right now.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

I kinda want reassurances that he has been working out!

So when 13 year old does pullups and chinups, he should do them when partner is watching?

 

[Greybeard]

Switch to a right hand reverse handshake position so she can kick past your elbow?

I don´t understand this position. I´ll ask her about it tonight. I don´t think we´re going to change what we´re doing between now and next Saturday when this is part of our competetion Waltz. I don´t think I´ll be able to change hands while leading a syncopated under arm turn going into the developé and follow it with some sort of a twinkle (side by side my left holding her right hand facing LOD). We have enough bobbles in our routine as it is -- more me than her.

 

[scullystwin42]

overall thought - even with lead and follow instead of routines, there are expected directions that the step should go. like diagonal center, etc. I get nailed on that a lot, i tend to go in the line of dance when i should be more diagonal (in latin). so a follow should be responsible for knowing their expected directions but be able to adjust.

my lessons have been busy, and i overdid it last week with life and lessons. working a lot on cha cha still.

also i continue to gain weight instead of lose it and i am super frustrated by that. and my health is still meh.

 

[Well Rounded]

Lessons last week were sort of a mixed bag. With Pro, we worked on our showcase number because the performance is only a week away. It went very badly at first…I told him that even though I’d been away from the studio for only a week, it felt like we’d lost a lot more than one week’s progress. I said I couldn’t see how we’d be ready to perform it by Saturday. He said things like “stop panicking” and “I’m not ready to throw in the towel yet.”

So I changed my approach. Instead of trying to hit every line perfectly, I just tried to hit SOME kind of line, even if it wasn’t what we’d choreographed. And that worked - better than I’d hoped! We did a pre-dress rehearsal run-through in the main ballroom (my costume is a 1950s-ish royal blue fit & flare swingy knee-length dress, with full white petticoats underneath - so fun!), which went well enough I decided to just push forward, full speed ahead. (The video of that pre-dress rehearsal is on my unlisted YouTube channel.) I mean, what the heck. It’s a showcase, not a comp, not an audition, nothing riding on it. And I LOVE the song, the choreo (too bad I can’t actually DO all of it, but oh well), the costume - overall it’s a very cute number. If our goal is “have fun, charm the audience, & make everyone smile,” then I think we’re ready.

But…as we know, one of the downsides of showcases is that preparing for one can interfere with (or in my case, bring to a dead stop) your syllabus progress. At the end of Thursday’s lesson, a Viennese waltz started playing. I gave Pro my biggest, pleading-est puppy dog eyes, & he laughed & said “ok, fine.” We took dance hold and did L & R turns around the room - which felt GREAT! - but then I felt him trying to signal something to me by adjusting his left hand’s hold on my right hand, and I went blank. I had no idea what he was signaling. He led me into an open figure (maybe butterfly/back-to-back?) and I had NO idea what to do. I sort of stumbled to a stop and we just looked at each other. I shook my head in confusion. “Ummm…,” I frowned, “THAT was revealing. I think we should forget about silver. Clearly I need to stay in bronze a while longer.” He replied, “yeah, like another year!” (Not sure he was joking.)

So I went back through my lesson records and discovered that the last time Pro & I did any silver smooth was in April - FOUR MONTHS AGO. We’ve done nothing but showcase and a handful of rhythm lessons since then. Crap. Crap, crap, crap. And to make it worse, I’ve been having regular Standard lessons with ProV during those same 4 months, which means I’m no longer accustomed to doing any apart work. AND I MISS IT!

I also had a lesson with ProV this week. We tried to dance the basic figures he’s shown me in W, FT, & QS, but I didn’t remember a thing (although our frame & connection were better than they used to be). At the Standard Fun Night in June, we used short simple routines. And now, merely two months later, they felt totally unfamiliar to me. It was soooooo discouraging. I love my lessons with ProV, his energy and enthusiasm and humor and knowledge - but this just isn’t working. Standard is too difficult for me to merely “dabble” in it. I need more than just one weekly lesson to retain what I’m learning, much less make any progress. And I need to practice at home - but there aren’t enough hours in a day for me to practice everything I need to practice.

And I don’t want to learn Latin now (if ever). And although ProV has learned enough Smooth that he is now teaching it, his style of smooth is - well, not what I’m used to, and not the way Pro does it, and looks sorta like a Latin dancer trying to do smooth using a Latin style. Idk. I’m not describing it well.

But what all of this boils down to is this:

• I can’t afford to take multiple weekly lessons with 2 teachers
• To make progress in standard, I need multiple weekly lessons with ProV
• To make progress in smooth & rhythm, I need multiple weekly lessons with Pro
• Learning the little bit of standard I’ve learned has already interfered with my ability to dance smooth

I actually feel a little like crying at the thought of giving up lessons with ProV, but I feel a lot MORE like crying at the thought of giving up - or even just cutting back - my lessons with Pro.

I’m also considering taking a “dance break” after the showcase and having NO lessons at all, with anyone, for a few weeks. I can use that time to reacquaint myself with all the stuff in smooth & rhythm that Pro & I had just started to work on, before the showcase took over my lessons, & before ProV took over my attention.

This year, my dance journey has been wandering down a meandering path with lots of fun side trails and rabbit holes. And that’s ok, but I think I’m ready to narrow my focus again.

I had been working on smooth and rhythm for about 6 years when a very good standard pro was hired. After 1 lesson I realized I would need frequent lessons with standard pro to establish a strong foundation,. For about 10 months I took 6 - 10 private lessons a week with 2 pros in 3 styles and did showcases and competed in all 3 style. It was glorious but not sustainable.
After about 6 months I had a solid enough foundation in standard that I could reduce my lessons to 4 per week when not doing a showcase or comp prep.
It was totally worth it. My dancing improved everyday. Many things I learned in one style contributed to my growth and development in the other styles.
So long as you love all of them you can keep doing them but time and money might require you to focus more heavily in one area for a period of time then rotate and focus on a different area.
It was very rewarding to compete in 3 styles. The only reason I didn't add Latin is we ran out of time before I could add it. The international teacher left the school.
I've been in mourning ever since.

We now have a female instructor from Ukraine and I have happily resumed my international journal, only this time I'm going to lead and follow as well as learning standard and Latin.

 

[Cal]

At today’s lessons I ran out of time to ask about anything as glamorous as the Bombshell. Instead, with Pro2, I told him about the problems that Am Partner I had covering the floor during Rounds last week, and asked for some options to use when we can’t get across the midpoint of the short side. We got through Waltz and Tango.

With Pro 1, with me as Follow, we worked on Tango and Foxtrot. In Foxtrot, with the Three Fallaways, for a long, long time, he’s been using a pivot after the second Fallaway, as he finds it useful when students can’t move enough down the long side. But lately we’re finding that we cover so much floor that it’s now cramping us in the corner. So, we played around with various options to replace it. And after all that we decided, somewhat predictably, we’re just going to remove the pivot and use the regular Three Fallaways – I gotta say, without that pivot, the drive down the floor feels really good!

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

I’m also considering taking a “dance break” after the showcase and having NO lessons at all, with anyone, for a few weeks. I can use that time to reacquaint myself with all the stuff in smooth & rhythm that Pro & I had just started to work on, before the showcase took over my lessons, & before ProV took over my attention.

Well, circumstances have made this hypothetical temporary dance break a reality. I have no lessons at all, with anyone, for the next 4 weeks, due to an upcoming business trip, medical procedure, and unexpectedly having to help my elderly parent relocate. I *could* have squeezed in a few lessons in Sept., but I don’t want dance to be an activity that just sits on the sidelines and has to be “squeezed in.” It deserves my full attention and a higher priority than I can give it in Sept.

My lesson with Pro yesterday was a very good one. I explained the upcoming circumstances to him at the start of the lesson, so he focused most of our time on solo technique drills I can work on at home. He apparently heard me last week when I told him I want to learn “real” partner dancing (as opposed to learning “how to be a pro/am student whose dance teacher carries her around the floor and makes her look good even though she herself doesn’t know much”), because he was less playful and more serious than usual. He heavily emphasized the underlying skills I need to improve if I want to become an actual partner in partner dancing; most of which (in my case) have to do with balance, knowledge and control of my own body, intentional movement (and the ability to stop that movement without falling over), and integration of my arms and head into what the rest of my body is doing. Also: using my receiving leg to pull (not just using my standing leg to push); & practice walking extremely pigeon-toed, since my feet REALLY REALLY REALLY have to be parallel in smooth.

He demonstrated practice drills for me in both rhythm and smooth. It was eye-opening to realize how much more is expected in silver than in bronze. People used to tell me, “when you compete in bronze, judges are mainly looking for good posture, decent footwork, and enough musicality to dance on time/with the beat of the music. And smile.” I thought they were exaggerating…now I’m not so sure. But when I again questioned whether we should have stayed in bronze, he remained adamant in his denial of that suggestion.

We did a bit of silver smooth waltz, and he liked the way I followed his shaping and swaying. But at one point he pushed me away from him, laughing, and said, “it feels like you’re shoving your hips at me!” I replied indignantly, “well, yeah - that’s because I’ve spent the last 7 months studying Standard with ProV, and hearing him constantly say ‘give me your hip’ and ‘where is your hip’ and ‘more hip please’ and ‘stay connected with our hips’!” Pro admitted that was indeed probably the reason, but explained how he wants different connection points with (and responses from) me.

As we talked, I realized (once again) that my problem with learning smooth & standard at the same time has a lot more to do with me having two different teachers than learning two different styles simultaneously. The locations of their hips, ribcage, shoulders, knees, etc. in relation to mine are almost completely different. And as I’ve said before, I’m simply not skilled enough yet to manage those differences.

I reminded Pro that one of the reasons I had wanted to learn Standard is that it would help my Smooth. He sighed & said yes, it often does have that result, but it appeared not to be working that way for me. When he watched me dance with ProV at the Standard Fun Friday, he had been dismayed (or even downright disapproving) at my much-too-short strides (among other things). I think maybe that’s because ProV doesn’t expect/ask as much from me (as Pro does) with his lead, so I don’t give him much; then he responds to my underdancing by also doing less, then I respond by doing less…you get the idea.

Anyway, it was a very productive lesson. My goal right now is to be able to demonstrate real progress when I resume lessons in 4 weeks.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

Anyway, it was a very productive lesson. My goal right now is to be able to demonstrate real progress when I resume lessons in 4 weeks.

While not impossible, I think it will be an accomplishment if you manage to avoid any backsliding in four weeks without lessons.

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

While not impossible, I think it will be an accomplishment if you manage to avoid any backsliding in four weeks without lessons.