raindance
Forum Master
And you could shoot it at him (like a big fuzzy rubber band) if he's ignoring it! Might break the tension at least.
How Are Your Lessons Going? Thread 3
- Thread starter ProgressNotPerfection
- Start date
Purr
Forum Master
It's optimistic, but also kind of pointless. Seeing a method fail repeatedly in the past is a good indication it's going to fail in the present, and in the future. Recognizing and dealing with a student's learning idiosyncrasies is key to success.
Physics people are not necessarily book/syllabus students when dancing. I'm a physics person and I'm a "feeler" with much of dancing.
I can think about the physics. I can help-- if the thinking is done in a separate operation. But I do not benefit much from long "book" explanations during a lesson.
Beyond that, overly long detailed list-like explanations at the wrong time just overload working memory. They aren't actually good for anyone. Even if you use a "book" (on any subject) you usually need to break things down to the size of "bit" someone at your level can deal with and only discuss less than 5 at a time-- otherwise or working memory is probably full. ( As an analogy, "bit" could be "letters" for true beginners, then "words" for more advanced, then entire sentences and so on. But if a true beginner gets a hold of the book, they end up needed to rethink lots of basic stuff like 'what's diagonal wall again', or heck... "what's a step vs. a check?" )
I think one issue with terms is also who needs them when? Leaders need to know something like "diagonal wall" sooner. Followers... well... depends. It doesn't hurt to know the correct direction. In some dances, we certainly need to know the default is "slot"-- so almost never to the side. Teachers certainly need to know it. But at least to some extent, direction is the leaders responsibility. And follows are supposed to go the direction they are lead.
I mean.... if we are on the social dance floor and the leader initiates a move and the lead seems to indicate 'go line of dance' when the "correct" thing is 'diagonal wall' how are we supposed to know he wanted diagonal wall? And once you are social dancing "in the wild", the lead is going to have to deviate to get around people; you need to go where he sends you.
PNP has mostly been dancing with her teacher; he knows this. His job is direction-- and he's good at it. I'm sure he judged he could defer teaching her the direction. Especially since she has no ambition to be a teacher.
My teacher sometimes says "place your feet where your momentum sends you". This is as opposed to thinking there is a "right place according to the book" and contorting myself around. (Usually, these two directions should match. But when they don't, you have to do what momentum dictates.)
Physics people are not necessarily book/syllabus students when dancing. I'm a physics person and I'm a "feeler" with much of dancing.
I can think about the physics. It can help-- if the thinking is done in a separate operation. But I do not benefit much from long "book" explanations during a lesson.
Beyond that, overly long detailed list-like explanations at the wrong time just overload working memory. They aren't actually good for anyone. Even if you use a "book" (on any subject) you usually need to break things down to the size of "bit" someone at your level can deal with and only discuss less than 5 at a time-- otherwise or working memory is probably full. ( As an analogy, "bit" could be "letters" for true beginners, then "words" for more advanced, then entire sentences and so on. But if a true beginner gets a hold of the book, they end up needed to rethink lots of basic stuff like 'what's diagonal wall again', or heck... "what's a step vs. a check?" )
I think one issue with terms is also who needs them when? Leaders need to know something like "diagonal wall" sooner. Followers... well... depends. It doesn't hurt to know the correct direction. In some dances, we certainly need to know the default is "slot"-- so almost never to the side. Teachers certainly need to know it. But at least to some extent, direction is the leaders responsibility. And follows are supposed to go the direction they are lead.
I mean.... if we are on the social dance floor and the leader initiates a move and the lead seems to indicate 'go line of dance' when the "correct" thing is 'diagonal wall' how are we supposed to know he wanted diagonal wall? And once you are social dancing "in the wild", the lead is going to have to deviate to get around people; you need to go where he sends you.
PNP has mostly been dancing with her teacher; he knows this. His job is direction-- and he's good at it. I'm sure he judged he could defer teaching her the direction. Especially since she has no ambition to be a teacher.
My teacher sometimes says "place your feet where your momentum sends you". (This is both physics and feeling.) This way of picking where your feet should to is as opposed to thinking there is a "right place according to the book" and contorting myself around. (That would be "using book, and neither physics nor feeling.)
Often-- or coventionally, these two choices directions should match. But when they don't, you have to do what momentum dictates.
I can think about the physics. It can help-- if the thinking is done in a separate operation. But I do not benefit much from long "book" explanations during a lesson.
Beyond that, overly long detailed list-like explanations at the wrong time just overload working memory. They aren't actually good for anyone. Even if you use a "book" (on any subject) you usually need to break things down to the size of "bit" someone at your level can deal with and only discuss less than 5 at a time-- otherwise or working memory is probably full. ( As an analogy, "bit" could be "letters" for true beginners, then "words" for more advanced, then entire sentences and so on. But if a true beginner gets a hold of the book, they end up needed to rethink lots of basic stuff like 'what's diagonal wall again', or heck... "what's a step vs. a check?" )
I think one issue with terms is also who needs them when? Leaders need to know something like "diagonal wall" sooner. Followers... well... depends. It doesn't hurt to know the correct direction. In some dances, we certainly need to know the default is "slot"-- so almost never to the side. Teachers certainly need to know it. But at least to some extent, direction is the leaders responsibility. And follows are supposed to go the direction they are lead.
I mean.... if we are on the social dance floor and the leader initiates a move and the lead seems to indicate 'go line of dance' when the "correct" thing is 'diagonal wall' how are we supposed to know he wanted diagonal wall? And once you are social dancing "in the wild", the lead is going to have to deviate to get around people; you need to go where he sends you.
PNP has mostly been dancing with her teacher; he knows this. His job is direction-- and he's good at it. I'm sure he judged he could defer teaching her the direction. Especially since she has no ambition to be a teacher.
My teacher sometimes says "place your feet where your momentum sends you". (This is both physics and feeling.) This way of picking where your feet should to is as opposed to thinking there is a "right place according to the book" and contorting myself around. (That would be "using book, and neither physics nor feeling.)
Often-- or coventionally, these two choices directions should match. But when they don't, you have to do what momentum dictates.
I'm sure this is really frustrating.
Generally speaking, people cannot keep a list of 12 truly independent things in working memory. (They can keep 12 letters in their working memory if they recognize they are two words. That's because "working memory" is effectively two things, not 13. )
Likely the only way he can deal with a list that seems go constitute 12 "things" is he recognizes some subsets of adjacent things that are groups in his mind. (Example from a routine I did: Once you know what a "sailor shuffle" is, it's 1 thing. When you are learning it, it is a bunch of separate steps.)
And of course, then there is doing the pattern. If it's new to you, you usually need to remember the list of separate steps, do them and so on. Only after a bit do you chunk the whole step into "sailor shuffle".
Naming the pattern or sequence (e.g. "sailor shuffle") is actually useful to memorizing, and if a sequence does not have a conventional name, it doesn't hurt to give it a name. My Open tango routine contains a sequences we've dubbed "The step with no name". It is composed of some sub-patterns, but it isn't a "named thing".
The limits of working memory and the fact that "chunking" can disguise how few "bits" can be held in working memory is actually a big challenge in teaching. It is aggravated in group classes with students of all levels. If you put together a group of professional dancers you can describe a routine as a series of sub-units they can remember. Their chunks are the sub-units.
If you include beginners or intermediates, you need to describe how to do the sub-unit. Their "chunks" are individual actions or moves within the sub unit. They need to do the actions/moves a few times before it is a chunk-- and they can really only try after the remember the list! The more advanced dancers could both 'remember' the full list of things to do, but also do them. This gives the appearance that people can just "remember" long lists if only the "paid attention". But you can't just tell the less advancers they could remember if they 'paid attention'. There is an actual limit based on the fact that the beginners "list" consists of a longer list of much, much smaller items..
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Heh. There ARE Follows, however, who very quickly memorize the “long chunk” of choreography for their routine, and then, when you want to work on a “small chunk” of it, or start in the middle, have NO idea what the “small chunk” Syllabus Figures are – they don’t know the name/direction/rise/fall/cbm/sway for any of the “small chunks”, unless you start the routine right from top. (And even though they “just follow” – well, goodness help the Lead if the Lead changes any “small chunk” of the routine.)
And, sometimes, because the Follows don’t “know” direction/rise/fall/cbm/etc. of the Syllabus Figures, Follows sometimes manage to do things such as: block the Lead, or plunk down a foot too early, or completing the figure they think it should be before the Lead has had a chance to complete the proper lead for the figure. (And then, [we’ve all heard it!] the Follow says: “well, I can follow anything, as long as you can lead it”, accompanied by a tight little smile.)
And the reason that I know this, is because, as a Follow, I went through that stage, too. (Cringe! Yes, I did that, too. Cringe!)
And I got so frustrated as Follow by not knowing the direction/count/cbm of how to break apart the “long chunk” routine, and where to start from or where I needed to be in order to link to the next figure, or that there might be “regular” AND underturned versions of Syllabus Figure which are both “correct”, etc., that very early on I told my teachers that they needed to teach me Syllabus Figures first, and THEN put them into a “long chunk”. Once I knew the “small chunks”/Syllabus Figures, it became much easier for me to “follow anything”. And it became much easier for me to not get in the Lead’s way, and even, in some instances, to “assist” the Lead in getting a figure completed (no, I don’t necessarily mean “backleading”), so that the Lead could get us into the next figure.
Heh. Funny how some of those “hard-to-follow” Leads quickly became much better dancers once I, as Follow, learned the Syllabus Figures!
But, that’s just me – YMMV.
And, sometimes, because the Follows don’t “know” direction/rise/fall/cbm/etc. of the Syllabus Figures, Follows sometimes manage to do things such as: block the Lead, or plunk down a foot too early, or completing the figure they think it should be before the Lead has had a chance to complete the proper lead for the figure. (And then, [we’ve all heard it!] the Follow says: “well, I can follow anything, as long as you can lead it”, accompanied by a tight little smile.)
And the reason that I know this, is because, as a Follow, I went through that stage, too. (Cringe! Yes, I did that, too. Cringe!)
And I got so frustrated as Follow by not knowing the direction/count/cbm of how to break apart the “long chunk” routine, and where to start from or where I needed to be in order to link to the next figure, or that there might be “regular” AND underturned versions of Syllabus Figure which are both “correct”, etc., that very early on I told my teachers that they needed to teach me Syllabus Figures first, and THEN put them into a “long chunk”. Once I knew the “small chunks”/Syllabus Figures, it became much easier for me to “follow anything”. And it became much easier for me to not get in the Lead’s way, and even, in some instances, to “assist” the Lead in getting a figure completed (no, I don’t necessarily mean “backleading”), so that the Lead could get us into the next figure.
Heh. Funny how some of those “hard-to-follow” Leads quickly became much better dancers once I, as Follow, learned the Syllabus Figures!
But, that’s just me – YMMV.
fatherdowling
Well-Known Member
I had my third lesson yesterday. We reviewed the slow waltz things I learned the week before and also was introduced to some tango walks and reverse turns.
I wish I had a better memory. I’ve been writing down a little recap of what I learn each lesson so it just doesn’t disappear instantly. Also right now I’m only taking one lesson a week and already want to do more. I can see how if you have the budget can easily get really into this.
I wish I had a better memory. I’ve been writing down a little recap of what I learn each lesson so it just doesn’t disappear instantly. Also right now I’m only taking one lesson a week and already want to do more. I can see how if you have the budget can easily get really into this.
Warren J. Dew
Forum Master
HappyLilac
Well-Known Member
Lesson today was mostly getting the rust off after three weeks of no lessons. We ran through cha-cha, rumba, and waltz.
We spent a pretty solid amount of time at the end of the lesson talking about my performance quality. Basically Pro’s point was that it’s good when I know I’m doing something wrong, but at the point where I notice it, it’s already happened, and making faces about it very much distracts from the performance quality. We had a really similar talk a month or so ago about separating “learning” and like “class mindset” from “performing.” He does want me to think of our dancing as a partnership - I think this will be pretty hard for me just because of the nature of pro-am (also just my general lack of self confidence). He also read me very correctly when he picked up that I am fairly competitive and want to do things correctly (who doesn’t, though?).
Much to think about…
We spent a pretty solid amount of time at the end of the lesson talking about my performance quality. Basically Pro’s point was that it’s good when I know I’m doing something wrong, but at the point where I notice it, it’s already happened, and making faces about it very much distracts from the performance quality. We had a really similar talk a month or so ago about separating “learning” and like “class mindset” from “performing.” He does want me to think of our dancing as a partnership - I think this will be pretty hard for me just because of the nature of pro-am (also just my general lack of self confidence). He also read me very correctly when he picked up that I am fairly competitive and want to do things correctly (who doesn’t, though?).
Much to think about…
ProgressNotPerfection
Forum Master
Hooooo boy, does this sound familiar! It’s definitely true, and definitely hard to overcome. I record my lessons so I can study portions of them later, and I can’t help noticing that there are many times when my face looks like I’m in pain or just smelled something disgusting, either because I was concentrating so hard or I recognized that I just did something really wrong. But yeah, in a performance setting, it’s crucial to maintain a cross between a poker face and a big smile (well, depending on what dance you’re doing. The big smile isn’t always what you need).
My pro has emphasized the same thing as yours: “by the time you notice your mistake, it’s over - and worrying about it just makes you lose focus, and then you’re more likely to keep making mistakes as a result. You’ve got to stay in the moment.”
I know what he means by that, but it’s very hard to implement.
As my wise and experienced friend @j_alexandra often tells me, when I express frustration about [everything related to learning to dance], “it’s in the doing.”
Patience, Grasshopper!
I suspect nearly every flaw a followers in general have we also see in leaders and vice-versa. But which thing each learns first varies. I think many beginner leaders in general take a longer time to pay attention to what their partner does when they are applying "what the book says". (This can result in bad timing because they are timing according to a list of instructions.) Followers in general take longer to pay attention to "what the book says".
These is sort of a natural consequence of what you need to do first to lead and to follow.
Oh, yes, to be sure. Heh - after I started learning to Lead, when I used to attend studio-practice parties, it got to be rather tiresome that the Follows would all come up to me one-by-one to moan about how awful all the other Leads were and to vent all their complains about them; and one-by-one all the Leads would seek me out to gripe about how awful all the other Follows were and to vent all their complaints about them. 
So, the lesson there: fix your own deficiencies before you start complaining about other people’s deficiencies.
So, the lesson there: fix your own deficiencies before you start complaining about other people’s deficiencies.
At lessons today, my first hour was with Pro2, with me as Lead. In Quickstep, he clarified one position problem that I was having with the Woodpecker; and he fixed a position problem that I was having in the Same Foot Lunge in Waltz and Foxtrot. But most of the lesson was spent on the Double Reverse Spin in both Waltz and Quickstep, and we got a bit nerdy about the second half, where as Lead I’m meant to reduce my speed a bit and allow the Follow to finish the rotation by “drawing” the rotation around. And, how to compensate when the Follow does not actually do that (and how to respond to the Follow when the inevitable comment comes, blaming the Lead for reducing speed….)
My second hour was with Pro1. He gave me his insights into leading the DRS, and suggested some head position changes to assist the Lead in slowing the Lead’s rotation in the second half….but those are going to take a long time for me to master. Then, we got into refinements on Whisks and that took up the rest of the hour.
My second hour was with Pro1. He gave me his insights into leading the DRS, and suggested some head position changes to assist the Lead in slowing the Lead’s rotation in the second half….but those are going to take a long time for me to master. Then, we got into refinements on Whisks and that took up the rest of the hour.
Happyhorsie
Well-Known Member
Jive day. American spin is still wonky. Need to remember angle on ending step of fallaway. All these terms confuse me lol. Think my whip is p good though. Still working on that body position. I think Jive is the one I find the least interesting to work on so far. Up up up, down down down; ugh.