As I have been told by many visiting coaches. Your pro's job is to make you look good. You will get better at the apart work as you practice and work on it. Silver is a new level of being apart so it is part of the learning curve.
How Are Your Lessons Going? Thread 3
- Thread starter ProgressNotPerfection
- Start date
joy
Forum Master
Yes. There are plenty of well-trained dance students who look better then some less trained Pros.
I was just asked last night if I plan to turn Pro. I hope every year, to get better and better that people have a hard time distinguishing me from a Pro ;-)
It's just part of the process. If you have good enough teachers and coaches, and you work hard consistently, and you fix your postural and biomechanic issues (which most people ignore because it takes daily work and can be boring), your dancing will improve and look better and better. And one sweet sweet day, it might look like a Pro's. Or maybe depending on age, a retired Pro, cos they still look really good when they dance!
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Hmm.... One of my pros got influenza and at the last minute couldn't come to the Snow Ball. So I watched pro-am rhythm day (waiting it out for smooth day.)
I saw various pros and formed opinions. I think it's your pros job to help you make yourself look good. There is a fine balance there.
I specifically watched bronze and silver.
I saw a pro who (in my opinion) were "over dancing" relative to his ams. I was as if he was signalling "look at me, not her". There seemed to be a lot of "move to a position, pose, 'look at me!'". (Not sure I'm describing this so anyone recognizes it.) I would have found a lot of the "drama" in his dancing somewhat distracting. (Though I have to say, I thought a somewhat similar thing when I later watched him dance pro-pro. But at least with his pro-partner, she had moves and energy too. With Bronze students it struck me as way too much and distracting. Then again, I imagine judges can figure out how to watch the Am. )
I saw one pro who I thought was "phoning it in". He did things that-- as far as I could tell-- were technically fine, but the am had energy and was filling moves out more than he was and could have used some balance. I thought "meh".
I've seen pros who I can tell are doing what I call "heavy leads". Hard to explain, but you can feel the difference between the lead's connection "suggesting" direction and timing, and a strong enough 'push' to sort of "moving the follow" in a particular direction. ( I don't mean shoving... I've never seen a pro do that. Shoving never helps. )
I know when I feel a "heavy lead" on a dance floor. It turns out I can also sort of see it -- if I'm positioned right. First time I saw it I was like "Oh... X really did move A around there.... I don't know if this makes his ams "look good" or "not look good".
I saw a one pro who I thought was just awesome over the full Bronze-Silver range of multiple students in both rhythm and smooth. I think this guy knows what "the job" is during competition and I think the right balance makes them "look better". (He turned out to be a former US champion. I talked to him at breakfast and he was also a very, very nice guy.)
Tracy
Well-Known Member
Prepping for a comp in 1 1/2 weeks. Did rounds yesterday and about died! Overwhelmed after coaching and trying to incorporate all the new ideas quickly. Trying to balance teach's advice to not be so serious and relax ...oh, and also, go through all your smooth dances and add this idea in on your own before your next lesson.
Tracy
Well-Known Member
Please don't mistake my "complaining" for not liking what I'm doing! It sometimes help to vent a little and let off steam. It will be fine and I'll get it. or I won't. But it will be ok! lol
Happyhorsie
Well-Known Member
Figured out where toe is suppose to be during rumba walks today. Now need to keep maintaining body action throughout it all . Feet muscles hurt like crazy from gripping the floor too hard lol. Figured out connection is suppose to be more away and not as lean-y in as I had always thought. Same with natural top. Hip connection is still work in progress. Need to find some good leaders to practice with lol.
DoWrongRight
Well-Known Member
Just wanted to say I really liked this commentary on what you saw.
Lessons today were a lot less bleak than last week. They both knew that I’d left lessons last week feeling really deflated, but they also knew that I knew that it’s part of the process and that I’d cycle out of it. (We really do have a very long-term teacher/student relationship.) So, all good.
My first hour was with Pro2, and I asked him to watch me dance solo. First up was to take a look my foot closures on the VWaltz. He said that he saw improvement from last week (whew!), though he said it looks like I’m thinking so much about closing my feet that I’m losing a little bit of my swinging action – but he’s not too worried that I won’t get it back. We then turned to Waltz and he said that my work on the push-pull of the legs is giving me more flow. He adjusted one thing on the pivot action of my Natural Spin Turn as Lead which helps my CBM; and then he gave me a reminder of my head position in the Fallaway Slip Pivot. We moved on to Quickstep, and he gave me a pointer on my head position in the Running Finish as Lead.
The second hour was with Pro1, and I also asked him to watch me dance solo. I took a deep breath and asked him to look at my VWaltz and foot closures. Like Pro2, he said that it was much better (again, whew!). But, he said I need to pay more attention to the length of my stride when I’m on the forward/outside part of my turns because - on my own – it looks like I’m cheating the length. We then turned to Tango, and I asked him about the transition in the Drop Oversway, as Lead, from the “challenge” position to the “drop” position. Pro1 referenced a concept that I’d once heard in a group class with Glenn Weiss about using the “hands” – and, wow, that magically made it so much more easy. We still had some time for Foxtrot, and Pro1 watched me dance that solo as Follow, and he fixed an alignment issue in the Bounce Fallaway, and then (because he is Pro1, after all) scolded me about sometimes getting square in my Reverse Turns.
So, I left lessons today in a much, much better frame of mind.
My first hour was with Pro2, and I asked him to watch me dance solo. First up was to take a look my foot closures on the VWaltz. He said that he saw improvement from last week (whew!), though he said it looks like I’m thinking so much about closing my feet that I’m losing a little bit of my swinging action – but he’s not too worried that I won’t get it back. We then turned to Waltz and he said that my work on the push-pull of the legs is giving me more flow. He adjusted one thing on the pivot action of my Natural Spin Turn as Lead which helps my CBM; and then he gave me a reminder of my head position in the Fallaway Slip Pivot. We moved on to Quickstep, and he gave me a pointer on my head position in the Running Finish as Lead.
The second hour was with Pro1, and I also asked him to watch me dance solo. I took a deep breath and asked him to look at my VWaltz and foot closures. Like Pro2, he said that it was much better (again, whew!). But, he said I need to pay more attention to the length of my stride when I’m on the forward/outside part of my turns because - on my own – it looks like I’m cheating the length. We then turned to Tango, and I asked him about the transition in the Drop Oversway, as Lead, from the “challenge” position to the “drop” position. Pro1 referenced a concept that I’d once heard in a group class with Glenn Weiss about using the “hands” – and, wow, that magically made it so much more easy. We still had some time for Foxtrot, and Pro1 watched me dance that solo as Follow, and he fixed an alignment issue in the Bounce Fallaway, and then (because he is Pro1, after all) scolded me about sometimes getting square in my Reverse Turns.
So, I left lessons today in a much, much better frame of mind.
DoWrongRight
Well-Known Member
Inconsistency continues to dominate lessons. Schedules have been conflicted with due to one thing or another. All are reasons that are just unavoidable (illness, family, weather, etc.). Naturally this makes getting into a rhythm difficult and makes the building process slower. Practicing has been a tad more infrequent due to my work schedule at the moment.
Oh well, this too shall pass.
Oh well, this too shall pass.
yep, this is what I mean about the pro should make you look good. Over dancing in relation to your student makes the student look bad. Phoning it in isn't fair to the student. The pro should have the skills to moderate their dancing to help but not over/under whelm their student
They are trying to get their student to the next step, on time, or move them when they aren't moving themselves. I didn't indicate that the student isn't responsible for their part, but an over zealous or a lackadaisical pro doesn't help at all. I have had pros on each end of this spectrum, and it really showed at comps.
My pro dances completely different with me as an open dancer than I when I see him with his bronze students. If he gave that much power to them, they would not be able to control their next step. I am sure that he dances at a higher level with his pro partner than he does with me. As a pro, she can handle/absorb then bounce back more of his energy.
ProgressNotPerfection
Forum Master
Yes! I remember once when I was a very new beginner, maybe 8 months into my lessons, I asked Pro to please dance a rumba with me without holding back. I just wanted to see what it felt like. He looked skeptical and I could tell he was reluctant, but he gave in (against his better judgment) and did as I asked. And, no surprise, it was an utter disaster. I think I managed perhaps a single step before falling apart. The level of energy and nuance and power coming from him was astonishing and overwhelming. It didn’t even look like he was dancing a rumba; at least, not any version of rumba I had ever been exposed to.
We stopped after about 6 seconds, and the look on his face was a mixture of sympathy, exasperation, pity, and “I tried to warn you.” I suspect the look on MY face was a combination of surprise, disbelief, terror, and envy…but maybe also a little bit of determination.
I waited about 3 years before asking him to do that again (this time with a cha cha), and while I thought I knew what to expect, it was pretty much just as overwhelming as the first time. On the plus side, though, I didn’t feel so dejected afterwards, and might even have lasted a whole 10 seconds before falling apart, lol.
#makesadifferencewhenyoustartasachild
#unrealisticexpectations
#GOALS
Anyway, back to the pro-am aspect of this, I find it fascinating to compare our older videos (e.g., dancing a bronze waltz at Heart of America after 11 months of lessons) to our more recent videos (e.g., dancing a silver waltz during my lesson, after 4.5 years of private lessons). The amounts of shaping and swaying and power and stride have increased incrementally each year, and it’s very exciting (to me) to imagine what our dancing might look like in 4 more years.
I don’t think Pro has any truly advanced (gold or open) regular students right now. He has several silver students like me, and some bronze students, and I think maybe some wedding couples. But I have seen him do showcase routines that were way more advanced than anything he does with me, and those are fun to watch. However, even in those performances, it is obvious he is holding back so as not to overshadow (and overwhelm and overpower) his student.
That’s definitely an important skill for a pro/am teacher, and it seems that plenty of teachers don’t have that skill…or choose not to use it.
ETA: I feel extremely fortunate to have Pro as my teacher.
HappyLilac
Well-Known Member
On kind of a similar note, we kept coming back to my general lack of traveling/drive/stride whatever you want to call it in smooth in my lesson yesterday.
As like an experiment, Pro asked me to bend my knees forward as much as possible while keeping my heels on the floor and my back straight. His mouth kind of dropped open a bit and I assumed it meant that I have horrible flexibility for someone my age. And he was like, “no, that’s phenomenal, if you can get even close to that low while traveling that would be incredible.”
So unfortunately now that he knows I have the physical ability to rise and fall a LOT more than I am right now, he’ll expect it from me. I asked how I’m supposed to set the stride length when I’m following. His answer was basically that socially, don’t go full power, just match the lead. In competition, he’s not going to be the holdup and he’ll just match what I do. On the off chance I’m really getting too crazy with it he’ll block me.
As like an experiment, Pro asked me to bend my knees forward as much as possible while keeping my heels on the floor and my back straight. His mouth kind of dropped open a bit and I assumed it meant that I have horrible flexibility for someone my age. And he was like, “no, that’s phenomenal, if you can get even close to that low while traveling that would be incredible.”
So unfortunately now that he knows I have the physical ability to rise and fall a LOT more than I am right now, he’ll expect it from me. I asked how I’m supposed to set the stride length when I’m following. His answer was basically that socially, don’t go full power, just match the lead. In competition, he’s not going to be the holdup and he’ll just match what I do. On the off chance I’m really getting too crazy with it he’ll block me.
Warren J. Dew
Forum Master
I'm pretty sure most instructors have the skill to hold back in lessons. Maybe not all of them use it in competition.
raindance
Forum Master
I've had the experience of an instructor that refused to hold back enough even in lessons (I was coming back from a shoulder injury at the time). I guess he may have had the skill, but since he refused to use it after being asked repeatedly, it didn't matter. One lesson was plenty with that guy, I might have even cut it short. He seemed to do OK with his regular students, but pretty much he decided how much was the right amount to hold back, and that was that.
My smooth pro varies how much he holds back and does so intentionally.
About a month ago, he was emphasizing my need to know my routine. We were doing things his leading went to "super, super, super.... super light..." I said "You're giving me nothing!" (This was a mix of griping and laughing. He did warn me he was going to pretty much give me as close to nothing as possible in that particular lesson. ) He told me, "That's right. You need to show me you know know the routine." He pointed out that I know it better than I think I know it.
He did not give me nothing in competition.
About a month ago, he was emphasizing my need to know my routine. We were doing things his leading went to "super, super, super.... super light..." I said "You're giving me nothing!" (This was a mix of griping and laughing. He did warn me he was going to pretty much give me as close to nothing as possible in that particular lesson. ) He told me, "That's right. You need to show me you know know the routine." He pointed out that I know it better than I think I know it.
He did not give me nothing in competition.