How do you keep on time?

[danceguy]

I wanted to ask the other Salsa folks out there, what parts of a Salsa song do your ears hear that keeps you on time? I imagine after many months/years of dancing you may not even think in these terms - but as beginner I still struggle with this.

For instance, I used to NEVER be able to feel/hear the Conga...it always was drowned out by the rest of the things going on...and it seemed to be invisible to me. Even after practicing for many hours with SalsaRhythms (there's a plug for you Fernando)...I still couldn't hear it. I'd hear the clave, bass and the piano when it was present, but when I'd start to get lost I'd always wait patiently for the cowbell hitting the 1, 3, 5 and 7 to keep my timing on track. Of course, when I couldn't hear this I'd start to get lost...

But then only day while I was listening to some Salsa music at home, my phone rang and I turned my music way down...and as I'm talking on the phone, in the background I hear this noise following a very clear cycle:

1 2 3 ta-ka, 5, 6, 7 ta-ka

I realize then that I can hear the the conga very clearly...with little hints of the rest of the instruments barely audible in the background. I listen more...and the rhythm suddenly seems so clear...and I think to myself...why did take me so long to be able to feel this?

Now I hear everything that's going on...and its so much easier to just let go and work on my dancing (which needs LOTS of work!)...but I thought I'd share this since it was such a struggle for me...

Best,

SG

 

[Sagitta]

Thanks for sharing SG!!

I actually just wing it!! I'm really bad. I think I get it right most of the time, though. [Shrug] I just sort of listen to the music, count in my head a basic or two, and off I go!! I do lose my feet though when trying out moves, and that gets me!

 

[Polarican]

I would like to share my method for timing for a couple of reasons…

One, I thought reading the perspective of a struggling newbie might be helpful to fellow struggling newbies.. (the: I am not alone!!) I also was hoping that it might take some of you Salseros back to those early days, giving you an opportunity to reflect on how far you have come and how you can relate to those early struggles…

And Two, and most importantly, I would like to know how “severely” off I am in my research and deductions…

Here it goes:

I have always wanted to learn to dance Salsa; or at least learn enough to blend in with a crowd without feeling awkward… Wanting to learn on my own (I am very stubborn and confident about my own ability to learn new things), I spent a couple of days a week at various Latin Clubs in NJ…

I observed many couples in those weeks. One of the first things I had noticed is that the couples who seemed to be beginners (or less advanced), danced to a more basic beat. I had determined that this beat was 1-2-3 skip (No movement on 4th beat), 1-2-3 skip (No movement on 4th beat)… I also observed that the more advanced couples (In my “very” amateur opinion), were dancing to the same beat, but with a sort of extra step. This step was more of a quick step/tap into a transition to the next set of 1-2-3 extra step… During this visual crash course, I mainly studied the footwork of these more advanced couples. What I noticed about this "4th step" that they were using, was that it always landed on a higher pitched beat. This beat was something that I never really paid that much attention to before… Once I concentrated on picking up this sound, this beat, I began using it as my starting point while I practiced by myself. I always thought of it as a 4th beat.

I did a lot of practicing. I got these 4 steps down and learned to hear the music better… . To this day, as soon as I walk onto a dance floor, this 4th beat is the first thing I find to get myself going. It’s also the only beat I use to catch my timing if I get lost during a song…

I have always felt the music, man do I love Salsa!!! But It was a lot of work going from hearing my own cadence or finding my beat, to being able to dance and "THEN" feel the music the way I used to. After getting comfortable, I stopped worrying about the technical aspect and just enjoyed getting myself into “mini zones” until it really clicked for me.. Now I feel the music even more than before!!! I can’t express in words how good it feels to finally be in there, getting my own little slice of Nirvana from time to time…

As of today, I can dance with a partner, but can’t lead very well… When I separate (which I end up doing for about 30% of a dance), is when I really feel the music!! I can do very basic turns, but most of the time after a turn I am scrambling for my buddy “4th beat” if I try to get a little fancy with a turn…

This is what I really would like to know:

From what you have read so far, how far off am I? I now realize that there are 8 beats after reading the other posts, but was I still somewhat there by accident? Or did I develop what is basically now a bad habit? Please let me know… I would greatly appreciate the feedback…

After finding this board and checking out Fernando's site salsarythms.com, I truly feel inspired to take my dancing to the next level!!!

Thank you for visiting "The mindset of an aspiring and formerly stubborn Salsero"

 

[brujo]

I started dancing on 1. When I first started, I would stick to songs like Juliana, which had a consistent cowbell throughout the entire song. The tuc- tuc- tuc- sound was fairly consistent and it was the way my cuban teacher used to indicate how to mark the song.

As I continued learning about the music, I started using the pa - tum, tu-cu sounds of the tumbao ( tumbadoras -> Congas ) to mark my time. I still use this when I am dancing on 2, as I am still not very comfortable with it.

I find that singing along to the song usually keeps me on time, I kinda hardwired my body to move forward or backwards as I start singing, this works with most songs as the ( depending on on1 or on2 ).

Now, I find that I usually listen to the melody layer on top to guide me in my dancing, so the brass section and the piano most of the time. This doesn't help me keep in time, but it allows me to play with the music.

The key is just to listen to as much music as possible in your spare time and just practice dancing the basic step and you'll get the pattern ( whether quick, quick-slow or slow-quick-quick ) burned into your system ).

Also, I'm probably hallucinating on this one, but the Colombian bands like Fruko y sus tesos and Grupo Niche seem to have a much stronger and noticeable conga sound to their music than the big New York orchestras. When I dance to a Colombian song, I find I can mark my steps much better following the congas than when listening to Lavoe, in which I use the trumpets and the clave.

 

[looyenyeo]

On time, every time

Maybe I'll get my wrist slapped for this, maybe not, because it's not a money-making site:

Check out the free timing tutorials on:
http://www.salsa-merengue.co.uk/VidTutor/salsatwo/salsatwo.html

Also, if you have a graphic equaliser in hardware or software, or sound mixing software, you could try making the conga/tumba tones more obvious. If I'm not mistaken, the fundamental frequencies of the open tones generally lie between 250-350Hz, and the slaps at about 4.9kHz. My congas are tuned to 261Hz and 330Hz.

Just cut the other frequencies down (not up, you want to remove background noise like the vocals), and it should make the tones more obvious. Once you know where to look for them and what they sound like, slowly ease the other frequencies back in place.

One thing to note is that good mastering engineers tend to boost the harmonic frequencies of the fundamental note, so that there is more perceived bass from smaller speakers. This follows a principle in psychoacoustics where supplying the (higher) harmonic frequencies of a fundamental, without supplying the fundamental itself, causes the human ear to fill in the fundamental without actually hearing it. Small speakers produce very little of the lower frequencies, so by supplying more of the harmonics, the ear is fooled into filling in the fundamental note e.g. if your little portable can't dish out 261Hz, supplying a signal at 522Hz plus others would make it sound as if 261Hz was present.

Moral of the story: if you can't find the fundamental, then look for it in multiples (of two) and you should be able to get some joy.

If you don't have a graphic equaliser, play the song slightly on the loud side, and go into the next room, leaving the door slightly ajar. The lower frequencies of the open tones are less directional, and travel better around corners...

Hope this helps,
Loo

 

[Vin]

Hi SG, my experience was similar, like you I would stick to listening for the strong 1,3,5,7 that I hear in most salsa's. Then one day I simply heard a tak,tak,tak, pause, tak,tak,tak pause in a song. Sometimes it would start on the one sometimes on the two but now I hear it or something similar in every song and this is what I dance to.

 

[HothouseSalsero]

I don't remember ever having regular problems finding the beat. It might happen now and then (and I have mentioned that I sometimes started on the 3, thinking it was the 1), but overall, that hasn't been a problem. I feel more that I am finding the beat spread out across all the music. The one thing I will say is that I don't think I particularly dance to the bass, despite seeing people say that this is what good dancers do. Maybe I'm not a good dancer then, but I don't find focusing on the bass particularly helpful.

I do sometimes have to wait for a (vocal) line to finish, before I feel sure of where I am in the beat, so that's still some sort of weakness. Also, that suggests that maybe I am focusing more on the melody?

I don't know. Most of the time it takes care of itself.

 

[Salsero_AT]

I think i use a combination of listening to the bass, the melody and often the piano. I find listening to the beginning of the montuno´s the piano plays often the easiest way. But it depends very much on the song what i use. It is hard to describe for me because i do not do it consciously.

The second important thing to try to learn is to hear the difference between 1 and 5. There are so many people who do not care about that but in my opinion it is important because you dance so much more with the flow of the music when you start your basic with the start of a musical phrase.

I had several years of piano and guitar playing experience before i started dancing so perhaps i had it easier in the beginning. But there is a difference in mentally hearing the beats and really dancing to them. And it is even much harder to dance a consistent timing with a partner. So everyone who has a hard time with this, don´t give up. It all comes with time

 

[danceguy]

Thank you for sharing your experiences everyone, its given me a lot more to think about. As I used to be a musician (sax) and a music ed major, I have to hear and feel everything that's going on when I dance...that's how I kept time when I played in a band so it carries over to my new hobby of dancing.

Its funny though, the first really distinct sound that I used to keep my time was the bass, then later the clave (still tend to forget about this one), piano, cowbell and now the conga as well. I also had a hard time with the 8 count concept...but once I got in my head how this cycle starts and ends, the flow of Salsa music began to make a lot more sense.

I only know how to dance on1, but I've noticed that my dancing is starting to move out of the "1, 2, 3 pause, 5, 6, 7 pause" frame of mind. Going out dancing more and observing and talking with advanced Salsero/as has really changed how I dance. Having picked up a couple of shine moves (I'm really an awful solo dancer, better at partnering) that have 8 steps, or even 2 or 4 steps, I'm able to play with the basic rhythm a lot more than before...and I like making up my own patterns while I practice at home...but it may be a while before I try any of these on the dance floor.

I saw my first live performance of on2 dancing last week, and it really made a lot of ideas click in my head, as well as leaving me with many more questions to ponder on my own...it will be a while before I attempt to learn it though.

Best,

SG

 

[HothouseSalsero]

See, I think that eight count cycle is what I was trying to talk about: I think I sometimes like to wait for the "true" one, rather than the five. My teacher never really made much of distinction between the two (although I'm sure she could have pointed it out), but I'm often more comfortable starting at the beginning of a musical phrase.

 

[vey]

I do sometimes have to wait for a (vocal) line to finish, before I feel sure of where I am in the beat, so that's still some sort of weakness. Also, that suggests that maybe I am focusing more on the melody?

I am doing the same thing, HS :!: I think it depends on what kind of music you're used to, or as looyenyeo eloquently put it in a topic cha cha rhythm in nightclubs:

As a dangerous generalisation:
A western-based ear tends to tune in to the melodics i.e. the chord changes...

African-based cultures tune in to the percussion,...

From what I understand, the danger of focusing on melody/vocal is that singers sometimes fluctuate their rhythm a bit (perhaps as part of their emotional interpretation of a song)...

 

[vey]

... but I'm often more comfortable starting at the beginning of a musical phrase.

Me too, me tooooooo!

Do you think it's a logical outcome of the fact that we follow the melody?

 

[HothouseSalsero]

Except that when I'm most in the flow of dancing, I feel as though I am dancing to the rhythm spread out across the entire song.

Now I want to try to experiment dancing to instrumental salsa/danceable Latin jazz, and see if I can catch what I am doing then when I find the rhythm.

 

[HothouseSalsero]

Maybe I'm just in denial because a lot of people frown on the idea of dancing to the melody. (On some level we must be dancing to the rhythm, right?)

 

[vey]

On some level we must be dancing to the rhythm, right?

I honestly hope so :!:

I think I know what you mean. I started with following only the melody, now I'm following (or sometimes not following :lol: ) a combination of things and it seems to work most of the time but when I'm trying to think consciously of what I'm following I'm loosing the beat