How does a dynamic dancer dance?

[Brummbaer]

That is often easier said than done.

Nevertheless, still the best! Personal in-depth analysis of potential meanings doesn't help - especially with that self doubt. You've learnt to dance, developed your technical skills, vocabulary and style, and continue to learn... so that's your space.

And yes, I too, know those feelings and responses.

 

[JournalInTime]

Nevertheless, still the best! Personal in-depth analysis of potential meanings doesn't help - especially with that self doubt. You've learnt to dance, developed your technical skills, vocabulary and style, and continue to learn... so that's your space.

You are correct, of course.

That said, I believe that the need to fight doubts and develop such survival habits is one of the downsides of Argentine tango not having universal standards, as we often discuss here. Inasmuch as I wouldn't want AT to become "ballroomized," to grow less improvisational, to skew competitive rather than social, etc., this lack of standards is a very good thing – I'd never advocate for exams, formal levels, and whatnot! Still, the situation does at times leave one wondering, "Is this workshop right for me?", "Should I risk inviting this excellent dancer to dance?", "Dare I participate in this demo or share this video?", "Am I ready to teach?", and so forth. Sure, we could have standards just for, say, teaching . . . but that wouldn't help people who aren't even sure they're worthy of the exam.

I don't have such doubts in other aspects of my life. I earned diplomas in theoretical particle physics the hard way, through classes and exams and defenses; my knowledge is out of date because I left the field over 30 years ago, but I have formal qualifications that would still be relevant were I to decide to teach physics. In those 30+ years, I've written millions of words and been published hundreds of times in my new domain, and I never hesitate to step up if writing or editing is needed by people in my life . . . I can point to a lengthy, publicly judged career to establish legitimacy. More personally, I know what mental and physical illnesses I don't have, as I've been checked, and my credit rating is something anyone can look up – the formula might be arbitrary, but it's accepted by banks and potential creditors everywhere.

I suppose that some people bank on what they can put on a CV, safely say in an interview with a potential employer or even a police detective, or state without perjuring themselves in a court. I'm like that. Others don't care about external proof – but the way I was raised, it is extremely hard for me NOT to regard claims unbacked by such proof as lying, whether by the person in question or by their admirers.

And yes, I too, know those feelings and responses.

Most people do to at least some extent. Those who do not are people I find hard not to see as liars. There are certainly a few local dancers who think they're "all that" in tango but who manifestly are not, including some who teach.

 

[TTanguero]

"Should I risk inviting this excellent dancer to dance?"

I think, if you know they have seen you dance, the answer to that one is generally "Why not?" At worst, they decline your cabeceo; at best, you both have a wonderful tanda.

It was one of my tango teachers who encouraged me to cabeceo followers I'd seen as way out of my tango pay grade. I initially saw it as ridiculous but agreed to try it and was amazed and delighted by the results. I of course had a few declined cabeceos along the way, but I had dances I would never have had if I'd listened to my own doubts rather than his encouragement.

When I subsequently had a bit of a tango crisis, another teacher said to me that I should look to the evidence of who accepts my cabeceo over my own idea of my dance ability.

 

[Brummbaer]

That said, I believe that the need to fight doubts and develop such survival habits

Yeah, imposter syndrome, and its varying degrees, is a pain at times. But sometimes caution is wiser than being the 'hotshot'.

I'd prefer the 'professional' who says you need to invite me, or Why didn't you invite me?, rather than 'comfort' from a random group on the internet, I'd seek advice from someone I'd trust about the subject.

 

[Rabbit]

Actually I don't think I've ever run into the "compliment" intended as an insult in tango, even though it's somewhat common in British culture. If the dance doesn't work out for whatever reason, people just say thank you with no further comment

I've heard second hand about some rude dancers criticizing their partners' skill, but it seems to be generally direct.

 

[Bailango]

I've recently had the "dynamic" remark, along with "creative," "inventive," "musical," and, my favorite, "fun." Sometimes there are more words, like, "You are fun because you give me room to play," and, "Dancing with you is like dancing with my partner" (a very well-known local teacher with 30+ years of experience). Then I stand there like an idiot, not knowing whether I'm being frankly complimented or subtly mocked: "creative" meaning "I had no idea what that movement was supposed to be," "musical" meaning "you Mickey Mouse," "room to play" meaning "I got bored waiting, so I did stuff," "like my partner" meaning "a copy of someone I know taught you," and "fun" meaning "I laughed . . . mostly at you."

It would be extremely unusual for someone to say any of those things with an intent to mock. Take compliments at face value. There are people who find it a challenge to accept a compliment when given. Are you one of them? Introverts at time don’t know how to react when complimented. Dancing has helped me accept compliments graciously.

It isn't nearly as easy to move on for those of us with certain psychologies or neurotypes, unfortunately.

Not sure if @opendoor belongs to that category.

For me, it usually takes the same person accepting my invitations regularly over a number of weeks before I'm convinced.

Convinced of what? May be for one tanda the stars aligned perfectly. My experience is even with followers with whom I enjoy good chemistry, exceptional dancing only happens once every five or six times. Music too plays a big part.

 

[JournalInTime]

There are people who find it a challenge to accept a compliment when given. Are you one of them?

Yes. That was a premise of my initial response, even.

I have always been a low-ego, low-profile person: I do not come from a family background with money or influence. My childhood was a stereotypical Gen X one that predated ideas like "self-esteem building" and "participation trophies," and I spend most of my time being bullied. My academic arc was unremarkable, and my two main research projects (into quark mass and neutrino mass) were dead ends, not even footnotes to our understanding of fundamental particles today. My editorial and auctorial career has been equally ordinary, with no recognition in my industry and little even in my workplace of 30 years. My long marriage ended in divorce. And I've never particularly popular . . . I'm the quintessential nerd.

So, it is very difficult for me to believe that a compliment is sincere. "But it's tango!" doesn't change much for me; my natural bias is to assume that tango is yet another realm where a person requires money and connections to thrive, might be bullied, is appreciated only if visibly and notably above-average, and is in a constant popularity contest whether they like it or not. I am slowly coming to realize that these things aren't always the case, but it's a battle.

Dancing has helped me accept compliments graciously.

I am working on this.

 

[Tango Distance]

My take is the compliments are sincere -- accept and enjoy! Here are some nuances:

• First off, I'm not claiming to be a good read of people! There are still reasons to believe compliments generally are sincere.
• How does an insincere comment help that person? Why would they say untrue things that make you more likely to ask them again?
• I very often compliment my dance partner. This does not trigger an automatic compliment back. This gives things some credence to me. Compliments of me don't happen every tanda, and they don't happen reflexively when I compliment my partner. This tells me it is a step deeper than "What's your name? What kind of work do you do? ..." kind of conversation.
• I get more compliments from newer dancers -- getting more (and more enthusiastic) comments as a function of difference in skill levels helps me believe those more experienced aren't just throwing out empty or insincere comments.
• Being mean or sarcastic with comments seems to be at odds with having just hugged that person for 10 minutes.

I believe mean or sarcastic "compliments" are very rare. I do believe there are generous comments, and even flattery-beyond-the-cold-hard-truth (CHT) compliments.

• Beginner gets something new often gets a generous compliment.
• Teachers are often complimentary a bit beyond the CHT. That encourages beginners!
• I gave a follower a big and specific compliment. She said "I bet you say that to all the ladies." I was able to truthfully tell her only 2 followers earned the compliment from me. It could be she had a fair amount of false flattery along the way?

That is often easier said than done. Some of us have not lived lives in which compliments were common or sincere – we might even have been put down so often that we assume that apparent compliments are veiled putdowns. Some of us live with various kinds of introversion, shyness, and neurodivergence.

I've recently had the "dynamic" remark, along with "creative," "inventive," "musical," and, my favorite, "fun." Sometimes there are more words, like, "You are fun because you give me room to play," and, "Dancing with you is like dancing with my partner" (a very well-known local teacher with 30+ years of experience). Then I stand there like an idiot, not knowing whether I'm being frankly complimented or subtly mocked: "creative" meaning "I had no idea what that movement was supposed to be," "musical" meaning "you Mickey Mouse," "room to play" meaning "I got bored waiting, so I did stuff," "like my partner" meaning "a copy of someone I know taught you," and "fun" meaning "I laughed . . . mostly at you."

It isn't nearly as easy to move on for those of us with certain psychologies or neurotypes, unfortunately. For me, it usually takes the same person accepting my invitations regularly over a number of weeks before I'm convinced.

As an aside, this is what stands in the way of me inviting the best dancers at events: I have no confidence in my standing, so I fear coming across as being too big for my britches, or just stupid.

 

[TTanguero]

I believe mean or sarcastic "compliments" are very rare. I do believe there are generous comments, and even flattery-beyond-the-cold-hard-truth (CHT) compliments.

• Beginner gets something new often gets a generous compliment.

Yes, I think that's the one big exception. In my experience, the nature of the compliment is sincere, but followers are certainly ... generous, shall we say ... when dancing with beginner leaders because they want those leaders to stay in tango and continue to develop. In my first few months, I was getting compliments on my musicality which really meant not much more than "you dance to the phrase and pause when the music does."

• Teachers are often complimentary a bit beyond the CHT. That encourages beginners!

Teachers have an incredible challenge. They need to hit the right balance of rigor and encouragement, and not only adapt that balance to each individual student but also the current state of mind of that student.

For me, it was extremely important that teachers gave me extremely precise and accurate feedback – the Cold Hard Truth. But I of course also needed encouragement in terms of my progress. There were times when I was more confident about that, and other times when I was less confident, and good teachers will adjust the dials accordingly. (Generally these days the dials can be pretty much tuned to the CHT end of the scale, though even now there can be exceptions.)

 

[Rabbit]

In my first few months, I was getting compliments on my musicality which really meant not much more than "you dance to the phrase and pause when the music does."

I would assume those were sincere, as that already puts you way above average...

 

[opendoor]

..In my first few months, I was getting compliments on my musicality which really meant not much more than "you dance to the phrase and..

I felt the same way. However, I knew that it meant my posture needed significant improvement. Back then, I was dancing at milongas before taking any tango class.

 

[JournalInTime]

My take is the compliments are sincere -- accept and enjoy!

I am learning to do so. As I said longwindedly, my doubts come not from within tango but from the rest of my life. I may seem outspoken here, writing volumes sight unseen, but in life I'm a "Head down!" kind of person, which has implications for how I view being noticed – for good or for ill.

How does an insincere comment help that person? Why would they say untrue things that make you more likely to ask them again?

Fighting not to channel my life experiences outside tango:

When I see followers sacrifice their feet, back, and neck to arm-leading, zero-floorcraft leaders who drag them unmusically around the floor smile and say, "Thank you!" afterward, and even accept later invitations from those leaders, I conclude that not all smiles and thanks are sincere. And I've overheard compliments in those contexts, so they go in the same bin. Such affirmations seem to be about dancing vs. not dancing in a community with too few leaders, not knowing how to say "no," not wanting to discourage others, or something else that has nothing to do with the leaders' dance skill.

So, when such a follower dances with me, I'm never sure how sincere a compliment is. Whatever my flaws, I work extremely hard with coaches and practice partners to improve posture, embrace, balance, stability, musicality, vocabulary, and even floorcraft. I ask the difficult questions, accept the difficult answers, and do my best to remedy flaws. All of that work can feel irrelevant when followers who compliment me on it go off and dance with leaders who do no work and who haunt milonga after milonga for years, exhibiting the same bad habits.

Being mean or sarcastic with comments seems to be at odds with having just hugged that person for 10 minutes.

"Mean and sarcastic" would be, yes. It's more "insincere" that has me wondering at times.

Teachers are often complimentary a bit beyond the CHT. That encourages beginners!

I am fortunate to have a coach who is not like that. I pay good money for the kind of "strict ballet teacher" type you see in films. Oh, she is very polite and calm, and doesn't prod me with a cane or shout, or even use "no" harshly . . . but I hear a lot of, "You're doing [bad thing] again. We've talked about that, and you know how to fix it," and, "I think you can do better." This is part of hard work.

But then, my personality profile and aptitude tests for years always said I'd be a perfect fit to army life.

I gave a follower a big and specific compliment. She said "I bet you say that to all the ladies." I was able to truthfully tell her only 2 followers earned the compliment from me. It could be she had a fair amount of false flattery along the way?

I always make my compliments as specific as possible (e.g., "I really like your left hand positions in turns," or, "It is amazing that [complex movement] worked – nobody much gets that!") and as sincere as possible. I don't want to smile and thank on autopilot. That's no more excusable when leaders do it! The whole "grit your teeth and be a gentleman" thing isn't part of my constitution . . . I was raised in the post-"ladies and gentlemen" era of "there are just humans."

Teachers [need to adapt to] the current state of mind of that student.

That is one of the hardest parts of being a dance teacher. There is so much emotion tied up in dance – particularly in a social dance that involves 10+ minutes of close hugs at a time – that state of mind is often more important than things like fatigue and injury. And the teacher sees their student in little windows of an hour or so, rarely more than weekly, if not monthly. The whole arrangement strikes me as being similar to psychotherapy sessions in a lot of ways.

For me, it was extremely important that teachers gave me extremely precise and accurate feedback – the Cold Hard Truth.

Same.

But I of course also needed encouragement in terms of my progress.

For me, encouragement isn't something I seek from a paid teacher. However much I respect that teacher, and regardless of whether they are my friend, I cannot un-see the profit motive. Also, with due respect to great teachers, it isn't their approbation that matters to me, but rather than of the entire community!

It might seem strange, but the compliments that matter the most to me are from other leaders: "I like dancing ahead of or behind you, because it's safe," "I can only hope one day to pivot as smoothly as you do," "Will you dance with my partner so she knows what [thing he can't lead] feels like, because you do it perfectly?", etc. Last summer, one guy I thought from his glares and silence hated me walked up to me with a very good visiting follower in tow and said, "We've danced, but he's better. You two really need to dance." Those compliments always seem sincere to me.

I felt the same way. However, I knew that it meant my posture needed significant improvement. Back then, I was dancing at milongas before taking any tango class.

When the shoe is on the other foot and I find myself dancing with a follower who hasn't taken classes, I find it very hard to do anything but finish the tanda and give a little nod. Supposed "natural" dancers with no training do not realize the extent to which iffy physical skills (like posture) or technique not only limit a partner's creativity by forcing them into "self-defense mode," but actively pose a physical risk despite "self-defense mode." As I work, practice, pay coaches, and drill, I believe less and less that "technical naturals" exist, though I accept the existence of "musical naturals."

 

[TTanguero]

Also, with due respect to great teachers, it isn't their approbation that matters to me, but rather than of the entire community!

I recently gave the example of a teacher who encouraged me to cabeceo much more advanced followers when I thought it was a silly idea. This is a form of encouragement with a built-in reality check.

 

[JournalInTime]

I recently gave the example of a teacher who encouraged me to cabeceo much more advanced followers when I thought it was a silly idea. This is a form of encouragement with a built-in reality check.

I really like that in theory! In practice, it has issues where I dance.

I've made more of an effort to invite highly advanced followers over the past year or so, but it mostly hasn't worked out – not due to rejection, but due to the twits who walk right up to followers with a hand stuck out, blocking lines of sight. Some of these guys actually move from rejection to rejection until accepted; others don't leave room for rejection; a couple intercept followers coming off the floor during the cortina. I refuse to do that because it's toxic, so I'm left "sniping" along lines of sight that open up for a second or two.

Recently, there was a very good teacher in town whose style and musicality were a lot like my own. I really wanted to dance with her, but it took three entire milongas before I finally saw her out of the ronda for long enough for a cabeceo, because – between her skill, her good looks, and her being new to the playground – the hand-eceo guys were all over her. I suppose she could've rejected them, especially the bad dancers (i.e., most of them), but that's easier said than done for a tourist in a new town.

To her credit, after we danced the first time, she made a point of looking my way and ignoring the hand-eceo guys until I nodded and we could dance. At least one of the hand-eceo guys still hasn't forgiven me.

 

[TTanguero]

the hand-eceo guys were all over her

Yeah, that can be a pain for sure. It unfortunately won't change until enough followers consistently refuse handeceos, but that's a big ask given the imbalance. Mostly I solved it by not frequenting milongas where it is common.