How does a dynamic dancer dance?

[Miradamiranda]

getting compliments on my musicality which really meant not much more than "you dance to the phrase and pause when the music does."

Be happy that this skill is something evident to you that it is something you take for granted. So many others don’t get it.

until enough followers consistently refuse handeceos

Please don’t blame all followers for accepting what LOOKS LIKE a hand-eceo. Just the other day, I explained to my beginner friend about the cabeceo. Then right after, a guy walked over and held out his hand close up. I had to explain to her that he had already cabeceo’ed from the other side of the room. Besides, I also have a few select favorite partners who I have verbally given permission to not depend on the cabeceo with me. These are people I know won’t take offense if I say no, not right now, but later.

But I get your point, and those bad dancers who keep trying to cabeceo and who I ignore, but they get closer and closer, I will visually or verbally decline instead of simply ignore.

 

[Tango Distance]

When I see followers sacrifice their feet, back, and neck to arm-leading, zero-floorcraft leaders who drag them unmusically around the floor smile and say, "Thank you!" afterward, and even accept later invitations from those leaders, I conclude that not all smiles and thanks are sincere.

"Thank you" is a social nicety said at the end -- indeed, one cuts a bad tanda short with "thank you." So I agree not all thanks are genuine in terms of deep appreciation, but arguably sincere in the sense of being nice, "thanks for the effort", and similar. Also, I think all involved realize its a social grace thing and not a Deep Truth kind of thing.

I've overheard compliments in those contexts, so they go in the same bin. Such affirmations seem to be about dancing vs. not dancing in a community with too few leaders, not knowing how to say "no," not wanting to discourage others, or something else that has nothing to do with the leaders' dance skill.

So, when such a follower dances with me, I'm never sure how sincere a compliment is. Whatever my flaws, I work extremely hard with coaches and practice partners to improve posture, embrace, balance, stability, musicality, vocabulary, and even floorcraft. I ask the difficult questions, accept the difficult answers, and do my best to remedy flaws. All of that work can feel irrelevant when followers who compliment me on it go off and dance with leaders who do no work and who haunt milonga after milonga for years, exhibiting the same bad habits.

I think many approach compliments with a different view. Here are some counterpoints:

• Usually there is something to compliment, it's pretty rare someone is 100% bad!
• Many (actually almost all) of us scale our compliments against that particular person. If a youngster shows me how fractions work, they get a heap of praise. If my chief scientist did that, I'd call his wife with worries about his mental health! If a newbie does a double-time step, or 2 steps in a row with the same foot, that is something I'll compliment. It is a higher threshold for more experienced people.
• I've heard complimenting something specific is better than a more vague compliment. Getting granular like that with compliments enables more fresh compliments, and more ability to pick out something good from a less perfect dancer. It also helps the compliment be sincere! "I like how I can lead you to take a big step into me!" (Said while while pointing and stepping back with a foot to show.)
• Yeah, someone might compliment hoping to get more dances, but that doesn't necessarily make it insincere. That is part of my dear wife's success. She tries to compliment every tanda, and says there is almost always something you can compliment.
• My tango distance journey showed me Tango has many truly kind and wonderful women (and I'm sure men, just don't interact as much with them). I'm sure many compliments are a natural product from a loving and kind person.

I'd love to heard others thoughts on compliments on nondance things. One older lady wears really nice dresses, and I compliment that. She said "You are smart, this is why you are still married!" I don't do this with younger ladies, but it seems appreciated by the older ladies (maybe the younger ones would, too, call me risk adverse).

 

[TTanguero]

Please don’t blame all followers for accepting what LOOKS LIKE a hand-eceo

True, though I think the handeceo guys are mostly known as such,

they get closer and closer, I will visually or verbally decline instead of simply ignore.

Yeah, some won't get the message until someone actually says "Nope" to them!

 

[Brummbaer]

Yeah, some won't get the message until someone actually says "Nope" to them!

You totally miss the point! Verbally declining an invitation to dance IS one appropriate response to such an invitation; the other, polite, option is to accept. Not unknown amongst friends! It goes with that method. An impolite reponse might be to launch into some tirade about cabeceo/mirada, or to snub that person. 'No thanks' ('Nope') is a perfectly acceptable response. I'm sure there are other responses!

The hand-eceo is, let's say, a bit naff, if that's the 'standard' invite. And those guys are known. Maybe consider their effort and success rate for their objective (which may not be yours) compared with alternatives.

 

[TTanguero]

You totally miss the point [...] Not unknown amongst friends!

No, I don't, and I'm not talking about friends.

 

[Brummbaer]

No, I don't, and I'm not talking about friends.

Are they 'successful' against their objective - which may differ from yours? Does it matter?

My point is that 'Nope', or other polite means of declining the invite, goes with the method!

 

[Bailango]

I've made more of an effort to invite highly advanced followers over the past year or so, but it mostly hasn't worked out – not due to rejection, but due to the twits who walk right up to followers with a hand stuck out, blocking lines of sight. Some of these guys actually move from rejection to rejection until accepted; others don't leave room for rejection; a couple intercept followers coming off the floor during the cortina. I refuse to do that because it's toxic, so I'm left "sniping" along lines of sight that open up for a second or two.

Now you know what I have been gripping about for a few years on here it doesn’t happen only with advanced followers but all followers. I stop trying to ask ladies who repeatedly reward this kind of behavior. There are some popular milongas I refused to go to precisely for this type of rampant behavior. It also correlates with bad floor craft.

 

[Bailango]

Yeah, that can be a pain for sure. It unfortunately won't change until enough followers consistently refuse handeceos, but that's a big ask given the imbalance. Mostly I solved it by not frequenting milongas where it is common.

We are leader heavy. So your theory is practically wrong

Many of my female friends argue we are not leader heavy so I actually have them count. It is easy. While tanda is going on, count the number of people of each gender not dancing. On extreme days or hours there could be 5 to 15 extra leaders. Usually there are about half a dozen extra leaders.

 

[opendoor]

..the hand-eceo guys were all over her..

Before Christmas, I left a milonga because of a "hand-eceo" guy: I glanced at a lady, she nodded vaguely. Then she shrugged. I stood up and simply took her hand out of his. The guy then blocked and trapped her feet with both of his. I left them. I'll never dance with that followera again. But I can understand her; she dances at every milonga all time long, and I ask her once every three months. Quantity simply trumps quality.

 

[Bailango]

Please don’t blame all followers for accepting what LOOKS LIKE a hand-eceo.

But if it is a repeat behavior with random guys….

As regulars we usually know who dances more with whom. Even if you are not regular as a visitor you can tell with little observation and pair’s body language towards one another. In my experience regulars who are friends or dance with each other more, also mostly use cabaceo. Might also look out for the other.

I have visited many milongas. It isn’t hard to pick out those that know or like dancing with each other. But the very same followers have also accepted my cabaceo. Part of skill is knowing the right time/opportunity to cabaceo. They may at times be what appears like a clique but at right moment there is a window to cabaceo. Or perhaps they already noticed you dance and from unfamiliar face can tell you are a visitor.

 

[Brummbaer]

I stop trying to ask ladies who repeatedly reward this kind of behavior.

Is that an effective strategy? Is it successful for you? Or for them? Does it deter this type of invitation?

 

[Bailango]

"Thank you" is a social nicety said at the end -- indeed, one cuts a bad tanda short with "thank you." So I agree not all thanks are genuine in terms of deep appreciation, but arguably sincere in the sense of being nice, "thanks for the effort", and similar. Also, I think all involved realize its a social grace thing and not a Deep Truth kind of thing.

I think many approach compliments with a different view. Here are some counterpoints:

• Usually there is something to compliment, it's pretty rare someone is 100% bad!
• Many (actually almost all) of us scale our compliments against that particular person. If a youngster shows me how fractions work, they get a heap of praise. If my chief scientist did that, I'd call his wife with worries about his mental health! If a newbie does a double-time step, or 2 steps in a row with the same foot, that is something I'll compliment. It is a higher threshold for more experienced people.
• I've heard complimenting something specific is better than a more vague compliment. Getting granular like that with compliments enables more fresh compliments, and more ability to pick out something good from a less perfect dancer. It also helps the compliment be sincere! "I like how I can lead you to take a big step into me!" (Said while while pointing and stepping back with a foot to show.)
• Yeah, someone might compliment hoping to get more dances, but that doesn't necessarily make it insincere. That is part of my dear wife's success. She tries to compliment every tanda, and says there is almost always something you can compliment.
• My tango distance journey showed me Tango has many truly kind and wonderful women (and I'm sure men, just don't interact as much with them). I'm sure many compliments are a natural product from a loving and kind person.

I'd love to heard others thoughts on compliments on nondance things. One older lady wears really nice dresses, and I compliment that. She said "You are smart, this is why you are still married!" I don't do this with younger ladies, but it seems appreciated by the older ladies (maybe the younger ones would, too, call me risk adverse).

Agree with everything you said. You mirrored what I wanted to respond.

I have some very simple ways to not only dress elegantly but stand out. Every milongas I go well dressed, I get at least few compliments. From ladies of course, but also from men.

I only compliment when I really feel it is deserved. Like you and others said, it about some specific aspect of their dancing. It is often pleasure to see delight on other person’s face. Especially when they are relative beginners. Sometimes they will respond that’s exactly what they have been working on. Some extroverts will high five or exclaim after such a compliment. You may not realise but the beginners you danced with might be looking up to you. So receiving a compliment is like a validation. I can recall expression of joy on a few faces after giving compliment about something they are doing well. I also give compliments to other leaders. You can say I am hard to please and I only give compliments when they are earned.

A lot of times who is complimenting also makes a difference.

On receiving compliments - when shy people give it, they can be short and in a few words. It can be mistaken as niceties. A couple of years back there was a follower who was visiting for a few months. I first saw her at a milonga. Her dancing was beautiful and a treat to watch. Especially her adornos were the most musical (and subtle) of any follower I had seen and she did them while social dancing without it looking showy. Not only was she advanced but also a pyt. One weekend I had nothing to do in the afternoon and noticed interesting description of a class closed by. I didn’t recognise the instructor’s name but since the class was described as something I liked, decided I will check it out. Turns out it was her. There were only four or five of us. I was the only man. The rest were ladies that I knew from milongas and I had danced a lot longer then the three of them. The first hour was walking technique. Something I am familiar with and like to work on anytime there is a chance. About half to three quarters of the class she comes and says very softly to me “you have very beautiful lines”. I doubt anyone else heard her say that. I don’t think she said it because she wanted me back in the class (so happened it was the second last class she ever gave before moving to BsAs, but I didn’t know then). Did she need money? Yes, she was from a country that had been invaded and she was definitely giving these once a week classes to earn some money during her short stay. Someone must have suggested to her that she do it. But it was after she had been dancing at milongas for a couple of months. She was a fairly shy person.

A follower friend who took those classes, suddenly showed a remarkable improvement when I danced with her a couple of weeks later at a milonga. I asked her if she had taken privates. That’s when she told me that the shy person was no longer giving classes and moving to BsAs shortly. After a few months when I danced with my friend again, she had regressed. That was disappointing. I think taking those classes which were about the basic techniques had improved her dancing remarkably.

 

[Bailango]

Is that an effective strategy? Is it successful for you? Or for them? Does it deter this type of invitation?

I don’t believe in rewarding bad behavior in any sphere of life. Be it a stranger or a friend. You can critic and give a pass if it is isolated or not a habit. I am highly patient and tolerant. But some aspects I have to draw a line.

The questions you asked have been asked before. I don’t think those are the right questions. When questions aren’t right how do you expect a correct answer for example avoiding a bad driver on a road is not going to make him/her a better driver!

 

[Bailango]

Before Christmas, I left a milonga because of a "hand-eceo" guy: I glanced at a lady, she nodded vaguely. Then she shrugged. I stood up and simply took her hand out of his. The guy then blocked and trapped her feet with both of his. I left them. I'll never dance with that followera again. But I can understand her; she dances at every milonga all time long, and I ask her once every three months. Quantity simply trumps quality.

I would do the same. Also agree that for overwhelming number of dancers it is not about quality.

 

[TTanguero]

A follower friend who took those classes, suddenly showed a remarkable improvement when I danced with her a couple of weeks later at a milonga

An excellent teacher was really moved when I gave her an indirect compliment. I'd done a small group workshop with her, and had danced with one of the other participants both before and after it, and told her how dramatically transformed her walk had been in the space of a single workshop.