How does a dynamic dancer dance?

[pianistamediano]

You can't be everybody's favorite. Can't even manage to be in everybody's top half. But if you can manage to be a universal "fine, why not," I'd say that's a pretty good sign!

Yes, you make a good point; but I'd still rather not in that case, because that middling, mediocre non/half-desire is just unappealing to me. I feel when I dance, so I don't want to dance with dancers who start from that kind of wishy-washy feeling.

 

[Miradamiranda]

You can watch me dance first!

No. Let me unpack this from a follower’s perspective. Correction: from MY viewpoint as a follower.

First, what would I get from purely observing? My experience in an embrace has nothing to do with what it looks like from outside.

What should I look at?

If your partner looks happy? That only tells me that she likes the dance according to her own criteria, which might have nothing to do with my own priorities. Or maybe she’s pretending she’s having a good time so that she’ll be asked again.

Should I look at what types of moves you do? It’s not the vocabulary of a partner that tells me if we’d be a good match on the dance floor or not. Maybe you are purposely limiting your vocabulary for a particular partner because of her limitations or what you happen to know what she prefers. I’ve had great and awful dances in all styles.

Should I look at how you approach musicality? Ok, fair enough, but since the follower’s interpretation of any given move is largely determined by her own timing, her musicality or lack thereof could give me a false impression of yours.

What about looks? Maybe it’s different for guys who like to hold pretty ladies in their arms, but no matter how handsome a guy looks, that tells me nothing about what my experience would be dancing with him. In fact, the most handsome guys tend to be quite full of themselves.

There’s one thing from observing that will make me shy away, and that’s pushing wild fancy moves on the follower with disregard to the context. But luckily that’s a very easy thing to observe right away. And that falls under the criteria of avoidance, not motivation to dance with someone.

I’m not the type of follower who sits around and watches and judges a lot. I’m too busy dancing myself, and again, I know I’ve said it many times before, but you can’t see from outside what it feels like on the inside. Sure I might appreciate observing someone’s well trained posture, for example, or observe a couple doing a cool little musical fun thing together.

I can’t tell you how many times an unknown-to-me partner invites me and it ends up being a wonderful surprise. If in a place I’m a regular and I see a new face standing around, alone, only watching, for quite a while before inviting anyone, and if he then invites me as one of the first people he invites, I take that as a huge compliment, and it often turns out great. Of course, it could be simply that I made myself cabeceo-able, but it could be that he had observed something in my dance he liked. So maybe it IS easier for leaders to judge followers for compatibility than it is for followers to judge leaders, I don’t know.

I can also say I’ve been disappointed many many times when I expected a lot more based on what I saw before I danced with someone who looked like he knew what he was doing. Maybe these guys only dance with the same few partners over and over and these partners were anticipating what he only half-led.

One more thing, almost all of my favorite partners have some flaw that could have been deal-breakers if I had been too picky before we started dancing.

Partners are like a box of chocolates. You never know what ya gonna get.

 

[JournalInTime]

To be completely honest: I cannot speak for others, but when I say that I prefer it when somebody wants to dance with me, personally, I'm approaching the question from the viewpoint of a dancer who cannot afford to travel much for tango, and so who dances chiefly at the same few local milongas.

Where I dance, I am a known quantity, someone who has danced at least once with just about every follower there who isn't a tourist (and even some returning tourists). I'm not counting on someone observing me, but on felt past experience . . . or, at the most distant, the experience of someone who has danced with me and gossiped to someone with whom I haven't danced. Truly "unknown-to-me partners," and tandas with total strangers – while they happen often enough to replace known followers who leave – are not a major part of my tango life.

That doesn't mean I dance with the same few partners over and over, and that they anticipate me to be nice! I'm part of a large community. The number of followers who've danced with me at least once is closer to 100 than to 10. It's just that I'm not dancing with many new faces over the weeks, months, and years.

In that specific and probably extremely unusual context (for Europeans who live where travel is easy, and for wealthy dancers with travel budgets), I feel that I have a reasonable expectation that there might be enough partners present who know me and who have danced with me at any given milonga that I can fairly expect interest from those who also liked dancing with me. Experience seems to bear this out, reinforcing my weird bias.

 

[opendoor]

No.. My experience in an embrace has nothing to do with what it looks like from outside..

I disagree. I, my girlfriend and my former dance partners also primarily chose based on observable criteria. We constantly analyzed and then discussed the SMOT a-posteriori. I don't want to rule out the possibility of positive surprises that aren't apparent from the outside. However, the presence of the following criteria almost guaranteed us a successful dance. The external criteria for a sound embrace (internal) are:
- The follower dissociates vividly in the lower spine, while the torso remains still;
- The follower is 10 cm shorter (effective height);
- The embrace doesn't require arms or hands, as the follower seeks contact, this is definitely noticeable from the outside;
- The leader dissociates vividly;
- The leader doesn't lean forward or towers over;
- The leader moves smoothly over larger rhythmic units.

 

[Miradamiranda]

I disagree. I, my girlfriend and my former dance partners also primarily chose based on observable criteria. We constantly analyzed and then discussed the SMOT a-posteriori. I don't want to rule out the possibility of positive surprises that aren't apparent from the outside. However, the presence of the following criteria almost guaranteed us a successful dance. The external criteria for a sound embrace (internal) are:
- The follower dissociates vividly in the lower spine, while the torso remains still;
- The follower is 10 cm shorter (effective height);
- The embrace doesn't require arms or hands, as the follower seeks contact, this is definitely noticeable from the outside;
- The leader dissociates vividly;
- The leader doesn't lean forward or towers over;
- The leader moves smoothly over larger rhythmic units.

These show technical ability, not whether I’d LIKE to dance with someone, even if I am a stickler for good technique. I know dancers with excellent technique but who I really don’t care to dance with. Sometimes, even, when technique has been the sole focus of someone, the ability to listen to and connect with a new partner can be missing. I’m sure this goes for both followers and leaders.

 

[Brummbaer]

You can watch me dance first!

You'd have to succumb to dancing with someone first to demonstrate your talents! They are watching!

Which is essentially what followers want/need to stop ironing a chair (along with all the other reasons why they might, or might not, be invited). If some dancers won't deign to dance with them, why not dance with those who are ready and willing?

 

[Bailango]

I disagree. I, my girlfriend and my former dance partners also primarily chose based on observable criteria. We constantly analyzed and then discussed the SMOT a-posteriori. I don't want to rule out the possibility of positive surprises that aren't apparent from the outside. However, the presence of the following criteria almost guaranteed us a successful dance. The external criteria for a sound embrace (internal) are:
- The follower dissociates vividly in the lower spine, while the torso remains still;
- The follower is 10 cm shorter (effective height);
- The embrace doesn't require arms or hands, as the follower seeks contact, this is definitely noticeable from the outside;
- The leader dissociates vividly;
- The leader doesn't lean forward or towers over;
- The leader moves smoothly over larger rhythmic units.

my experience has been a 50% to 60% success rate of being right when decision is made by observing a follower I have not danced with before. It is also 20% to 30% in the opposite direction. Where follower didn’t appear to be that good but turned out to have a good embrace and following skills when I asked her. Perhaps it was the previous leader who was making her look not as good. I also have an example of at least one follower who appears very average when looking from outside. But all leaders want to dance with her. No, she is neither PYT and not amongst attractive looking. Her embrace and following skills are fabulous. A follower friend of mine once asked, why do leaders what to dance with that lady. I explained that only when you dance you realise how good she is.

 

[opendoor]

These show technical ability, not whether..

But with that, you're trying to separate and split off the embrace and the connection from the dancing!

 

[pianistamediano]

Partners are like a box of chocolates. You never know what ya gonna get.

Like I said to fiesta:

Yes, you make a good point; but I'd still rather not in that case, because that middling, mediocre non/half-desire is just unappealing to me. I feel when I dance, so I don't want to dance with dancers who start from that kind of wishy-washy feeling.

As long as there is some interest in me; rather than mere self-interest. Of course, I might not be able to tell why, but then I can usually feel the disinterest in their embrace unless they're good at hiding it.

 

[Tango Distance]

Everyone prefers a dance partner who wants you for you, and not that it beats sitting. Saying you'd prefer to sit and not dance with someone willing to dance with you... Really?

• My dear wife's excitement swept us into a 1st Milonga, and 1st festivals, probably earlier than ideal. I would cabeceo someone, and tell them "I'm new at Tango." The lady would often respond "Beats sitting!" They didn't seem to think it was offensive to say that, and I wasn't offended to hear it.
• Look at it from a poor, unasked lady's point of view. Yeah, she'd prefer to dance with that maestro, or that instructor, but the night is half over and she hasn't danced yet. She's not a criminal for lowering her standards and wanting to dance with anyone at that point!
• Sometimes two people have a slow start, and then something clicks. Maybe you'll turn around that follower from "anyone" to "definitely you again!"
• You have a lady who wants to dance -- a 10 minute commitment -- does it really need to get analyzed deeper than that? You also have the bonus that being a tanguera is a good filter -- a tanguera will move more beautifully than the average person, and is often dressed up all nice, too.
• I know we all like to think we are awesome... But really now, are you really that much better or different in a good way than the other 50 or 100 men at the event? Injecting myself here: I know there are ladies who definitely like me individually as a dance partner... I know there are some who I will never or rarely get to dance with, and in between those book ends I'm not sure. Don't look the gift horse in the mouth, just enjoy the gift!
• I used to think the followers would rank order the leads, and had a hard cutoff. I still believe some do it that way. Now that I live in the big city, I realize it is more nuanced. My empirical observations show that a good number of follows have the algorithm "I'll dance with the upper 50% of leaders here." The number is also something around 25%, or even top 1 to 4 leaders. On a slow night (it has happened where I have been among the best leads present) really good follows who generally ignore my cabeceo will dance with me. One night, it was a small boutique event, with a bunch of instructor leaders, I judged myself to be 2nd to last. I got only one dance (and she was criticizing my dance as we danced!); two rather average follows wouldn't dance with me (had never said no before); 2 good followers who had danced with me multiple times before ignored me. They were all dancing about every other tanda with very good instructor leaders. There's a lot more, that's just a couple of examples. Clearly, I'm better than sitting for some ladies. That's OK. Not complaining, I generally dance almost every tanda.

If you're down and confused
And you don't remember who you're talking to
Concentration slip away
Because your baby is so far away

Well, there's a rose in a fisted glove
And the eagle flies with the dove
And if you can't be with the one you love, honey
Love the one you're with

Don't be angry, don't be sad
And don't sit crying over good times you had
There's a girl right next to you
And she's just waiting for something to do

And there's a rose in a fisted glove
And the eagle flies with the dove
And if you can't be with the one you love, honey
Love the one you're with

Turn your heartache right into joy
She's a girl and you're a boy
Get it together, make it nice
Ain't gonna need any more advice

And there's a rose in a fisted glove
And the eagle flies with the dove
And if you can't be with the one you love, honey
Love the one you're with

 

[pianistamediano]

Saying you'd prefer to sit and not dance with someone willing to dance with you... Really?

Yes, willingness isn't the only criterion. If it is for you, then good!

 

[Tango Distance]

Agreed. The big point in the thread is the follower wanting to dance with you in particular. What if she totally loves Tango, a love too big to care about individual men? I actually know someone like that, I call her "Tango Goddess," truly amazing. Every leader raves about someone -- would you still hold to the gate keeping of wanting to dance with you in particular?

 

[pianistamediano]

What if she totally loves Tango, a love too big to care about individual men? I actually know someone like that, I call her "Tango Goddess," truly amazing. Every leader raves about someone -- would you still hold to the gate keeping of wanting to dance with you in particular?

I don't dance with someone unless I (reasonably) believe that I can give them an enjoyable dance, and I cannot give them an enjoyable dance unless I were interested in dancing with her for any one or more of a wide variety of reasons. If it's different for you, then I envy you, because I cannot muster that energy.

I hold myself to that standard, however high it might be for others, and therefore would very much prefer others choose to dance with me, not just choose to dance. But I don't insist on others having that standard.

In my experience, having danced across Europe — if that's an adequate sample size for you — I've found that every single enjoyable dance I've had came from followers who don't just dance because it's better than sitting out a tanda.

Have I encountered such a tango goddess? Nope, I must be a lot unluckier than you. At the very least, my absolute favourite followers are not like that. Will they give unknown dancers a chance? Of course! And so do I. But it always arises from an attitude of being interested in what that person might feel like, and never because they don't want to keep sitting.

 

[opendoor]

..What if she totally loves Tango, a love too big to care about individual men? I actually know someone like that, I call her "Tango Goddess," truly amazing. Every leader raves about someone..

I've been dancing for 26 years, tried various styles and teachers. I don't mean to question your observations, Tango Distance, but I only know followers who weigh things up very rationally (usually much more rationally than I am). Most weigh quantity against quality, others distance versus quality. Social popularity versus quality also plays a role.
The "tango goddess" you mention hasn't actually developed her own vision of tango at all; she's undifferentiated, immune, and antibacterial. I encountered such follower types at the end of their second year of training.
In my tango career, I've only ever met one follower who came close to your example. Everyone whispered in awe that she makes every leader and follower, without exception, feel like their tango god. But on a more abstract level, this woman saw it as a challenge to complete every dance partner. She became a tango teacher and viewed the milonga as a practical training.

 

[tangoing]

I don't dance with someone unless I (reasonably) believe that I can give them an enjoyable dance, and I cannot give them an enjoyable dance unless I were interested in dancing with her for any one or more of a wide variety of reasons. If it's different for you, then I envy you, because I cannot muster that energy.

I hold myself to that standard, however high it might be for others, and therefore would very much prefer others choose to dance with me, not just choose to dance. But I don't insist on others having that standard.

In my experience, having danced across Europe — if that's an adequate sample size for you — I've found that every single enjoyable dance I've had came from followers who don't just dance because it's better than sitting out a tanda.

Have I encountered such a tango goddess? Nope, I must be a lot unluckier than you. At the very least, my absolute favourite followers are not like that. Will they give unknown dancers a chance? Of course! And so do I. But it always arises from an attitude of being interested in what that person might feel like, and never because they don't want to keep sitting.

I have the same philosophy. In fact if the ronda is too packed/chaotic, I often sit out entirely since I don't think I'd be able to give the follower a good dance given the space + poor navigation of other dancers.
Sometimes I do end up dancing and if the follower is also very experienced / have knowledge of leading, then it kinda becomes a little game / inside joke between us in navigating the ronda together which can be fun in itself, but I'd rather be able to truly give them an enjoyable dance.
It's also why I avoid most milonga tandas too, I don't think I'm at a level where I can give followers a good milonga tanda just yet.