How does Arthur Murray contribute to ballroom dancing?

[Dance Redeemer]

Since we are speaking of anecdata --- at my franchise studio about 45% of the students are women; 30% are men; the remainder are couples pretty evenly split between wedding and non-wedding couples. On the competitive/non competitive split, it seems to be about 60/40 (it was more like 50/50, so it has been slowly becoming a little more competitive than not). Competitive students take more lessons, so the percentage of lessons are more weighted on the competitive side. Also, the competitive students regularly compete outside the franchise framework (primarily NDCA), some only compete within the franchise, but many do both. Finally, the ratio of women/men competitive students is pretty consistent with the overall make up of the studio's student population.

It is interesting to see the variety of the makeup of the student population between studios and even within the franchise systems.

 

[DanceMentor]

Is there a gender imbalance in the general ballroom student population in the area from where these examples are taken? What about in the studios you observed? Are these examples exceptions for their areas?

Yes, absolutely. There are some studios that are more balanced. It might be more common that ladies gravitate toward certain dances more than men, but I can think of quite a few places one could go where it would be quite common to see more men than ladies there.

One scenario that I believe may contribute to the imbalance is immediately putting people in private lessons. In situations were you see group classes playing a more significant role, it is often the case that the gender balance is more equal.

 

[Spookisgirl]

As a non-franchise example, I am aware of a not-for-profit in my area that teaches people to dance without any means of assessing level. As a result, people who have done 4 years of group classes only (with almost no technique taught) are told they are 'gold' students. There is an entire community that thinks a competitive silver-level dancer is 'top-level professional' calibre. I would much prefer the AM model, than having a community of people who have no idea where there abilities really are.

For background, I learned at the local AM for 2 years before moving on to an independent instructor and switching to international style. I competed at both AMI events and NDCA events and AM is a sponsor for some NDCA events. At least at AM, everyone had a very clear idea of what level they were dancing at, and because of the testing each level had to be earned. Once I started getting more involved in the community (and yes as a social dancer), I could not believe how many people were taking 'gold' classes, but yet can't do a cha cha timestep, don't know what cuban motion is (let alone how to do it), or even a proper tango hold.

This may be a unique example to my community, but all I want to point out it that franchises are not the only place where issues can be found. In the end I think it comes down to the overall environment, who runs the studio, and what the goals of the students are.

 

[Leanna]

You really can't compete outside an AM competition with your own instructor? I've heard otherwise but generally they only offer it to the select few that have been going there for years. I see one or two AM students at outside comps in a year. Granted the last time I saw one was at Empire Dancesport 2 years ago...

It is regional and franchise dependent, I think. It's not highly encouraged- in my area it is NOT an option (which is a shame because we have a large number of NDCA comps on the area). I have seen a few AM people at outside comps, so that was too broad....

And, of course (as Larinda said) teaching people how to run a business is a great value. But not the kind of contribution I was focusing on (as a student)...

 

[Leanna]

The type of people that go to AM are ones who want to learn dance but have very low confidence. They get comfortable dancing in that closed environment so it suits them OK as long as they don't venture out into the real world.

I'm knocking people that go to AM if that is what makes them happy, but it does seem they are willingly being exploited.

This made me chuckle a bit (that your handle is "generalist" and in fact, you generalized a LOT!

Personally, I have no interest in being exploited. Nor did I have low confidence about dancing (I have a very strong ballet background), but the studio was 8 minutes from my house and was an easy "start point"- and, the social environment, which they do a great job cultivating, made it worthwhile at the time. I certainly never felt exploited, but some were talked into spending more and doing more than seemed reasonable to me. But something about that environment was valuable to them, and worth it! Luckily for AM, that is a percentage of their clients! But isn't everyone.

 

[Partner Dancer]

And speaking from a professional point of view AMI offers a LOT to the industry. As a business model they excel. And like it or not this is a business and if a studio or teacher isn't making money then they aren't going to be around for very long. The vast majority of pros here have gone through a franchise. And for the ones that didn't, they generally tend to fall into two different groups, world class dancers who excel as pros based on their competitive resume, and pros who wander aimlessly as independents.

Over the years I have had a lot of amateurs ask me about turning pro. And one thing I tell them is to go serve their time in a franchise (either one) or they simply aren't going to ever "get it". Yes they may dance and yes they may teach, kinda working as a pro but just kinda... existing. Going to studio parties and trying to siphon off of someone else's marketing and business skills that got the students through the door in the first place. So unless these ams are world class they pretty much don't make it in this business without some "business training" which AMI is amazing at.

There is training in how to run a studio, train a staff, dancing, teaching, marketing and sales. As teachers you have to learn how to explain, not just dance. You have to relate to people with different learning styles. Teachers need to learn how to be chameleons and personable. Franchises will help teachers learn how to interact with students and bring them out of their shell. If you are as exciting as a dry sponge you just aren't going to retain students. AMI trains their pros in all of this. It is not a given that just because someone can dance that they will be able to be a successful pro (whatever that is). There is so much more that a teacher/pro has to consider and learn to make it in this industry. And where else are they going to get that training? From a coach that taught them how to dance? No. From an independent studio where everyone is out for themselves? No.

Now as an independent if I wanted to open a studio tomorrow I could, because I have all of that training. As teacher I have an amazing career because I was taught that it isn't enough to love to dance. I have to make a living. Even by myself I still keep call logs, student progress charts, book keeping and accounting logs. Ya know... business stuff. That doesn't just happen for people without training. AMI and FADS do that.

AMI sells the fun of dance and they spend the big bucks that independents simply don't have in order to make ballroom a household word. The provide a safe predictable atmosphere. A chain of command you can go to when something goes wrong.

AMI donates large sums of money to help pros (even non-ami) who have had life threatening health issues without the security of insurance. LARGE sums of money they donate. They give back to this industry in immeasurable ways.

And mostly because they have created extremely successful teachers and studios (whether those teachers/studios stay within the franchise or branch out on their own) the US has grown into the country that all of the foreigners want to come to to try to make a dance career happen. So there is that.

I agree with pretty much everything here, having started dancing with
AM decades ago, and coming across AM people (instructors, students.
alumni) all the time.

One thing not mentioned here is the social etiquette AM (and FA)
students (and instructors) "learn" as as a result of being in the
system. In particular, dance snobbery is discouraged because
the system maintains the old traditions of ensuring all participants
being welcomed. From day one, newbies are "forced" to
participate and veterans are "forced" to "sacrifice" to share the
love of dance in a (reasonably) "fair" way. Included is the _rule_
that once one turns down a dance, one is _obliged_ to sit the
dance out. Appreciation of social etiquettes in partner dancing
will often also extend to understanding of etiquettes in general
(which is terribly lacking in these days of the Internet).

Granted, there is a huge self-serving business incentive for the
chains to espouse good partner-dancing social etiquette, but
the rules of chilvary and graciousness have often evaporated
these days, and perhaps social dancing may still be one of the
few bastions left. I suspect most independent (Ballroom and
other types) studios don't teach etiquette at all.

There is some amount of phoniness at times, though, when
veteran dancers make fun of other less capable dancers
(for ability or behavior) behind their backs, but these "trained"
veteran dancers would never decline (nor evade) the less capable
dancers because they realize the greater good _requires_ that
they make the "lesser" dancers feel good. But, then, this is a
major aspect of good social etiquette.

Over the years, I've been to tons of dance venues of all sorts
of genres (including collegiate Ballroom events), and it's just
amazing how many social dancer are so lacking in "class" in the
way they treat other dancers. Cliquishness and bad behavior
abound, where many dancers are so selfish/self-centered that
they ignore the feelings of others, or may often even thrive on
stomping on those feelings. While this behavior is typical of the
freestyle nightclub scene, it isn't (or shouldn't be) the foundation
of partner-dancing settings.

Personally, I still generally find AM/FA students/graduates to
be the most pleasant people to come across at social dances,
from the attitude standpoint. So, one of the big contributions of
the chain studios is the sustenance of "class."

 

[Generalist]

Personally, I still generally find AM/FA students/graduates to
be the most pleasant people to come across at social dances,
from the attitude standpoint. So, one of the big contributions of
the chain studios is the sustenance of "class."

That hasn't been my experience the rare times I have danced with AM students. For the most part they are poorly trained when it comes to social dance (I am not judging their competition skills). The worst part about dancing with AM students is that they have tribal attitudes, which they take with them to independent social dancing. When they can't lead or follow very basic dance moves they often start blaming who they are dancing with because they don't understand how colloquial their training has been.

AM students tend to be isolated in much the same way as cults (minus the cyanide laced koolaide). They rarely dance anywhere but their protected environment. I attend events where the AM studio rents their space to a social dance event and even there it's rare to see anyone from AM.

They are almost never seen dancing in clubs because none of them know how to do country dancing or West Coast Swing -- the dances that are most common. So they stay in their isolated island thinking they can dance. Personally I prefer them staying at AM because I get little pleasure dancing with them.

 

[Generalist]

This made me chuckle a bit (that your handle is "generalist" and in fact, you generalized a LOT!

- and, the social environment, which they do a great job cultivating, made it worthwhile at the time. I certainly never felt exploited, but some were talked into spending more and doing more than seemed reasonable to me. But something about that environment was valuable to them, and worth it! Luckily for AM, that is a percentage of their clients! But isn't everyone.

That's why cults isolate their members. The victims don't feel exploited and of course they feel comfortable being isolated from the real world.

 

[tangotime]

That hasn't been my experience the rare times I have danced with AM students. For the most part they are poorly trained when it comes to social dance (I am not judging their competition skills).
.

They are almost never seen dancing in clubs because none of them know how to do country dancing or West Coast Swing -- the dances that are most common. .

Dance training in AM and FA is dependant, in most cases, on location.Smaller studios do not have the access ( due to cost ) of a regular travelling coach and , the student body, with few exceptions, are there, more for the social activity. This alone, does not absolve poor teaching standards .

As to most popular dances , you could not be farther off the mark . Studio locations often cater more to local dance needs .

There was a time when, the west coast studios, did not teach E.C swing and the E coast studios, not W. coast swing.

Being a travelling coach for many decades, the guarantee of high standard teaching, sometimes had no bearing on the level of teacher competence .

 

[Generalist]

As to most popular dances , you could not be farther off the mark . Studio locations often cater more to local dance needs .

I can only speak for the Phoenix metro area - and frankly I just don't see any of the franchised studios catering to local needs. They cater to their own financial needs. Fred Astaire is no different. Perhaps in other localities the AMs and similar ilk teach dances that are popular in that particular area.

 

[Purr]

I recently had the opportunity to visit the AM in downtown Chicago. A friend of mine takes lessons there. I participated in two group classes, took a private lesson on Argentine tango from one of the instructors, and attended part of a practice party. The group classes were good, and the private lesson was terrific. The instructors were courteous, and the energy level in the studio was high. I got the impression there were lots of activities for students to participate in. The competency level of the students varied, but that's the same at all studios I've ever visited. Some of the student leads and follows, including my friend, are very good.

If I lived in downtown Chicago and could afford it, I might consider that AM for lessons.

 

[tangotime]

I can only speak for the Phoenix metro area - and frankly I just don't see any of the franchised studios catering to local needs.

They cater to their own financial needs. Fred Astaire is no different. Perhaps in other localities the AMs and similar ilk teach dances that are popular in that particular area.

I worked in Phoenix on 2 separate occasions. Admitted, that was many years ago, but,I can assure you that C and W was NOT being taught at that time. So, you made my point, studio's on the E and W coast, are unlikely to teach dances that are not in the standard 6/8 on the charts unless specifically asked for.

I also worked for FA for several years in metro areas (NYC were I was the DD ) and DC among others. Not a C and W , or WC swing, was in vogue.
IF you had stated that C and W was the most popular in your locale, then, that may be a more accurate statement.

 

[3wishes]

we started at a AM for social dancing lessons. My non-dancing husband's birthday gift to me.
We found, the while the teachers were young, college students making ends meet, they truly were dedicated to us, as a couple, and with my husband's severe arthritis from baseball, being able to enjoy social dancing to the best of our (actually his) abilities.
On the other hand, we also found - the teachers - were, most definately, not allowed to compete or attend "outside independent" socials, competitions, team matches, charity events, ect, unless it was an AM only event. As well, if someone were to take lessons outside of this AM studio, it had to be on the hush hush or they were asked to leave and find another studio to take lessons at. This was the owners mantra.
It didn't stop us from lessons nor attending the AM social circle at the studio. We know and still respect how hard many of the teachers worked and we personally saw several compete in Rising Star and Pro/Pro events at NDCA comps.
However, I moved on and we moved out of the AM studio scene for more diversity and comp activities, although we did make an effort with the owner to have 5-6 competitors with one teacher attend an NDCA event - they were - without doubt against it.
Nothing personel, it is their business and their way of handling things for their franchise location.

 

[Leanna]

This is such an interesting conversation to me. Really brings to light how one's experience biases them to make very broad claims about an entire group.

I think making a judgement about an entire group of students (or teachers) within a nationwide franchised chain is dangerously prejudicial. To qualify with "in my area" probably makes it a better claim than "all AM" (or whatever general statement you might make) fits. Too simple to paint with overly broad strokes. Own your bias, but don't present an overall view as "fact" unless you have, in fact, done some nationwide sampling- as you can see from this forum, the experiences vary quite a bit (with a few things remaining constant- like the fact of AM being more expensive!).

Pros and cons in every situation. You can speak to your experience with authority, but without good data, can't generalize.

 

[Purr]

It's up to the individual consumer to find the studio that best fits their needs and budget. It helps to visit as many studios as possible, and talk to people in the dance community about their experiences with them.