How long will you sit until you consider dancing with a stranger?

[LadyLeader]

I think there are not one that small event here, with guests 2x10. Instead most of my behavior has formed in situations where a Wednesday practica had 100-120 visitors and the community around 800 members. There was around 150-200 new members per year and about the same number was quitting for other activities. This was around 2005 and today we have a lot more organizers but still the smallest milonga I visit has 15-20 followers. The regular Friday outdoor milonga during May-September has several hundred visitors.

The number of tandas is a stone hard limiter of how many followers I am able to invite. A DJ friend told that on a milonga of 4 hours he plays 16 tangos, 3 milongas and 3 valses. With other words maximum 22 invitations in 4 hours. My usual dancing limit is 3 hours with maybe 2-3 skipped tandas and I land on 13-15 invitations.

The small 3hour milongas with less than 15 followers are so relaxed because i am able to offer a dance to all followers. If someone doesn't want it is ok and I can invite someone for second tanda or take an extra break.

In all other situations I need to managed the invitations in some way. This is a short list of my priorities in my mind today: Learning partners, real life friendships, joyful challenges, dances with shared laughs, visitors from Asia. I would say that a joyful laugh is often more important than the skill and a combination of these two is just marvelous!

When there is a tanda with no demands on the outcome is actually not so much about the followers. It is much more about how tired I am and what the DJ is doing. There are three DJ who have put me in such a fierce mood that I could have gone out to grab someone from the street for that tanda! The waiting time is 0 here. In other situations it is longer.

 

[c955]

If I don't like the music the DJ is playing, I'll end up staying seated all night, no matter how many strangers, superstars or favourites are present!

My thought process typically goes:

(1) Is the next tanda a tango, vals or milonga?
(2) Do I recognise the first song of the tanda?
(3) How much do I like this song?
(4) How well do I 'trust' the DJ in the way they're likely to construct this tanda?
(5) Which of my favourite dancers (for this tanda depending on T/V/M and orchestra) is available?
(6) Have I already danced with them this evening?
(7) If we have already danced together AND they are looking towards me for this tanda, great, let's go!
(8) If we have already danced together AND they are not looking towards me for this tanda, how strong is my motivation to dance to this tanda and how confident am I feeling in trying somebody I haven't danced with before? (I realise at this point that it makes no difference to me if they are a stranger to the milonga or not)
(9) If I have identified a potential partner with whom I have never danced, for this tanda, have I seen/watched her dance before? With whom does she regularly dance? I will also ask my buddy if he has danced with her before and for his impression of their tanda together.
(10) If I haven't seen/watched this follower dance before and my buddy has no information; if my motivation to dance to this tanda is strong and I feel confident in trying someone new (to me), What is she wearing? How revealing is her dress? How short is her skirt?

I know exactly how judgemental Q10 appears, however, it's important to me that others don't assume I just wanted to dance with the pretty girl in the skimpy outfit We have too many of the 'usual suspects', leaders both great and really not quite so great, who will home in on any new face if she is pretty enough.

This entire convoluted process or one very close to it, takes only nanoseconds to complete. It takes place every single time before I even think about attempting to exchange a cabeceo. Understandably, my highly conservative approach means I don't dance as much at a milonga as most!

In direct response to the OP's question, I might not dance with a stranger(s) the entire night or I may attempt to invite her to dance immediately I notice her. It all depends on the music!

 

[thedude]

If you are an experienced leader i agree with all the people that say to ask everyone especially a stranger (and even more so in a case of gender imbalance), the "a-list thing" is kinda restrictive, in my opinion dancing with the same followers all night is acceptable only for beginner leaders that don't fell safe and confident enough to dance with every partner...

 

[tangomaniac]

I'm going to the Chicago Tango Festival this weekend. Except for the locals, I expect 95% of the attendees to be strangers to other participants. It will be interesting if I see the same results. (I hope not!)

 

[Zoopsia59]

A lot of leaders weighing in here, which is unsurprising given that so many events seem to have more followers. Therefore "asking" seems to become the purview of leaders. (and also because the forum seems to mostly consist of leaders these days)

As a follower, I guess the question is about accepting dances or at least trying to mirada a leader (which is a difficult when there are so many extra followers either outright asking them or jumping into my sight lines to "cabeceo-hijack"). IME, at most regional events around here, leaders aren't looking for or noticing mirada.. they are looking at or approaching their preferred partners and ignoring anyone not on that list. Getting on the preferred list is a challenge at milongas that I only attend sporadically.

As someone who is more easily injured than I used to be, I am far more cautious about dancing with unknown leaders, but also with leaders who ARE known to me that I can see won't be physically comfortable for me to dance with. By "unknown, I mean strangers. Unlike tangomaniac, I feel that if I have seen a leader dancing with multiple partners, especially in my own community, I have a sense even without dancing with him, of whether I will enjoy dancing with him. i don't consider that person a stranger.

If I haven't seen someone dancing, then I try to wait until I do. That's also awkward sometimes, because both the leaders that no one else wants to dance with will approach a new person and so will the friendly skilled dancers who want to reach out. Typically however, IME, the leaders most likely to ask me soon after I arrive in a new place where no one knows me are the ones who know that they will be rejected by their fellow locals. I also know that in order to be asked in an unfamiliar crowd, I have to be seen dancing. If I dance with a poor leader, I will be seen dancing BADLY. On the other hand, if I wait for a better leader, I might not be seen at all. It's all very annoying.

I don't go by what other followers say about leaders, because we don't all look for the same things in a partner. I have a friend who raves about some leaders that I find awkward to follow, and she is "meh" about some of my favorites. However, I'm not looking for skill level, but the style of posture and connection. I will dance with a total beginner before I'll dance with some intermediate dancers. Beginners rarely hurt me. "Intermediate" level leaders can be hazardous.

It used to be that in my own community (where being seen dancing badly with a poor leader wouldn't affect my chances of getting dances from other leaders) I would always rty to be friendly and dance with newcomers, beginners, and strangers dropping in as guests. Now I just can't take the risk until I have an idea of how they will move. When I am the stranger, I have less control over my opportunities to dance and might have to take a chance in the beginning and hope for the best.

The stupid part of the whole "you have to be seen before better leaders will ask you when no one knows you" BS, is that the better leaders never seem to be WATCHING. They are out there dancing every tanda. They don't see or not see me... they already have a full dance card. If I wait for one of them, I'll probably sit all night and never dance at all.

 

[LadyLeader]

The local leaders know the other leaders' skill level and they will upgrade the follower skill level accordingly. It maybe is the worst looking tanda ever for her but it maybe is the best looking tanda HE had created ever. There is also a possibility that an experienced leader can see the actual, underlying signs of good dancing. Some followers get by the experience a charisma which is very solid and visibly. Solid calmness.
I suppose there is a difference if the leader is hierarchy oriented or a skill oriented leader. So there you maybe take a risk when accepting an invitation from a leader with low position.

 

[itwillhappen]

It seems that loyalty to my dance partners and my promises belongs to my core values.

Given a shortage of leaders, it's quite normal that followers will try to influence them by many means. After some time did my SO ask me to whom I think to be obligated at a milonga. And I had to admit that all my accounts are balanced. That was an important turning point for me to dance stable and relaxed.

 

[newbie]

I am curious about how she is reasoning? Are you thinking in the same way?

With the regulars she knows how the dance will be. With strangers she has hope.

 

[itwillhappen]

I suppose there is a difference if the leader is hierarchy oriented or a skill oriented leader. So there you maybe take a risk when accepting an invitation from a leader with low position.

If a follower perceivces a status risk by poor leaders, then the follower is hierarchy orientated. I don't know leader with such concerns.

In the beginning I was often unhappy when comparing my skills with other leaders. Somehow a self build hierarchy between leaders, it got better when I got better. But to dance with highly selective followers itself does not give me the feeling of a hierarchy upgrade.

 

[LadyLeader]

If a follower perceivces a status risk by poor leaders, then the follower is hierarchy orientated. I don't know leader with such concerns.

IMO the follower can know the facts about the life on pista, she can be realistic and make her decisions accordingly. She is not necessarily a hierarchy person herself.

Then a follower can choose to go for the hierarchy thing and just dance with the teachers or the most wanted leaders. And even within those tandas they do only things which make them look good and they actively interpret the lead towards that goal.

 

[tangomaniac]

A lot of leaders weighing in here, which is unsurprising given that so many events seem to have more followers. Therefore "asking" seems to become the purview of leaders. (and also because the forum seems to mostly consist of leaders these days)

As a follower, I guess the question is about accepting dances or at least trying to mirada a leader (which is a difficult when there are so many extra followers either outright asking them or jumping into my sight lines to "cabeceo-hijack").

I give you credit for at least looking. A lot of women seem content to talk and IMHO take themselves out of the game. Then there are others who look comatose and it's impossible to get their attention.

 

[LadyLeader]

I don't like to call it for obligations but there is loyalty and shared goals in dance with my nearest partners. This loyalty takes nearly all tandas during the first 1,5 hours on a local weekly milonga. Then there is for sure several friends who like to dance with me and who are fun to dance with. During that period I have moments to notice and get impressions of a visitor but it happens that when I am ready to invite they are about to leave.

If the whole community is loyalty driven the stranger's chances are few during the first part of the event. One follower friend told me that her extraordinary dances have taken place when she was early or when she stayed very late when the regular follow partners maybe had left or not yet arrived.

One of my Finnish followers keep telling me that the cabeceo is initiated during the previous tanda or tandas not only during a cortina or the first notes of a tanda. When a follower is smiling at me or turning her head from me when I am passing her table I know more about my chances later. It is a kind of two level cabeceo!

 

[itwillhappen]

I don't like to call it for obligations but there is loyalty and shared goals in dance with my nearest partners. This loyalty takes nearly all tandas during the first 1,5 hours on a local weekly milonga. Then there is for sure several friends who like to dance with me and who are fun to dance with. During that period I have moments to notice and get impressions of a visitor but it happens that when I am ready to invite they are about to leave.

I got around the local milongas for a while, travelling more for milongas and especially privates.
So I got rid of such considerations for a certain extent - if I "come home" nowadays, I can behave like a stranger.

 

[itwillhappen]

Then a follower can choose to go for the hierarchy thing and just dance with the teachers or the most wanted leaders. And even within those tandas they do only things which make them look good and they actively interpret the lead towards that goal.

I see such a behaviour quite seldom - but maybe literally, because I try not to see ladies that don't see me.

What I recognize is cliquish behaviour at high end level, particularly at milongas of tango schools by the flagship class students, tango journey attendees and women choreography project performers. Maybe that some follower there somehow try to protect their status and would share it in the long term. But I'm not interested, so I can simply bypass such groups.

 

[Zoopsia59]

If a follower perceivces a status risk by poor leaders, then the follower is hierarchy orientated. I don't know leader with such concerns.
.

I know of a famous teacher/dancer who told his girlfriend of the time not to dance with low level or poor leaders at NYC events because "What does it say about you as a follower if you are willing to dance with poor leaders? And what does it say about me as a leader if I dance with a follower who dances with bad leaders?"

I don't think this was an isolated sentiment not shared by other leaders. There are plenty of leaders who are hierarchy oriented in both their choice of partners and how they view followers' choices of partners.