How Much Is Enough?

[UKDancer]

This isn't a trick question, or me trying to make any sort of point, but rather a serious enquiry from a relative newcomer to the AT social dancing scene.

I've been attending group classes, on or off, for about twelve months, and I've done a few workshops with visiting teachers, but I feel as though my knowledge of the dance doesn't add up to anything that I can really use confidently at a milonga.

May I ask other leaders what they think are the key skills and range of actions/moves (not choreographed figures - I'm not interested in those) that are the minimum to be able to get up and not feel that it is an impertinence to expect a follower to accept an invitation to dance?

And may I ask followers for some indication (even reassurance) over what is the minimum you are looking for from an inexperienced leader to have (in any useful sense of the word) a reasonable or satisfying dance?

I'm an advanced dancer (and teacher) in other styles: but neither in AT!

 

[Mladenac]

Sth depends on your basic and visiting teachers.

if you are taught to learn to lead and follower to follow you have it all after one year.
Bigger problem could be unlearning other dances.

I noticed that a lot of people need to unlearn all the skill from previous activities.
I include myself in that list.

Always initiate a move and wait a follower to response.

 

[opendoor]

..been attending group classes, ..and I've done a few workshops with visiting teachers, but I feel as though my knowledge of the dance doesn't add up to anything that I can really use confidently at a milonga

Hi UKD, that´s quite normal. What you learn isn´t applicable at once, but, it lays kind of a foundation or structure in your brain. Somewhen you can draw on it: mañana

.. feel that it is an impertinence to expect a follower to accept an invitation to dance?

Tango is much more than moves, and skills. It is a period in ones life. Advanced women danced with me from the very beginning on, though I really couldn´t do anything but weighing to and fro. Tango is really much more than skilled dancing on the floor. It is talking (about movies, music, techniques, teachers, argentine culture, DJing, biographies, .... ) , it is spending time in a new community, it´s organizing all that DP thing, it´s really so much more than only dancing itself. By the way, for me it takes exactly 12 month anything new finds its way from the cortex, through cerebellum, into my feet!

And may I ask followers for .. the minimum you are looking for from an inexperienced leader..

Though I am a leader, what I got to hear is, a neat or serious appearance, (sometimes a good perfume), the feeling of devotion to the DP, and !! (very important) musicality.

.OD

 

[Mladenac]

And may I ask followers for some indication (even reassurance) over what is the minimum you are looking for from an inexperienced leader to have (in any useful sense of the word) a reasonable or satisfying dance?

Just follow the music, nothing extra you need to do.
I danced in close embrace with advanced follower who is also graduated piano.
And she didn't need any extra figures, just my comfortable embrace, and gliding along the music.
It was after my first year of dancing.

Over time you'll get more relaxed and hear more of the music.
And all the moves you learn you will find a place to use them appropriately along the music.
And you body will be able to adapt to also cause you will be more relaxed.

 

[Peaches]

1. Are you clean, polite and attentive?
2. Do you have a nice embrace?
3. Can you find the beat and, better yet, step on it? Or near it, even?
4. Can you walk decently?
5. Can you do a single side step in either direction, a single forward step, and a single back step in either direction? Rhythmically?

Bonus points if you can lead either a giro or a cross.

Extra special bonus points if you can combine simple walking, pauses and simple single steps in an interesting fashion that even remotely begins to correlate to the music.

 

[TangoTricia]

wot peaches said, in an ideal world.

for me, the minimum requirement for an enjoyable dance together is a connection to the music that I can recognise and respond to, within a comfortable embrace.

then, if you can do that, plus combine simple steps, walking and pauses in an interesting way, we are in "extra special bonus points" territory.

 

[UKDancer]

2. Do you have a nice embrace?

a connection to the music that I can recognise and respond to, within a comfortable embrace.

Thanks for all the comments. The embrace is troubling me a bit. What makes it 'nice' or 'comfortable'?

One of the habits I'm trying hard to break is to take anything like my 'normal' ballroom tango hold with an AT partner. I know that open embraces can be all sorts of shapes and sizes, but a BT hold assumes the followers backward poise from the waist, so that with the very forward balance of AT, I'm 'pushing' her right arm far too far. When I draw my own back, it stops being comfortable for me. It's the thing I struggle with, above all else (which is not to say that it is my only struggle!).

Otherwise, I guess I can tick the other items off the list pretty much: perhaps it is just my own insecurity that makes me feel like a complete twit every time I walk into a room full of AT dancers?

 

[Peaches]

A couple of ways that posture was explained to me, maybe something will stick or make sense:

Shoulders and hips--stand with your feet shoulder-width apart. Roll your shoulders back, then forward, then back, then forward. Feel where center/neutral is--that's where they should be.

Now, stand with your thumb on/above your navel and your pinky above your pubic bone. (Stay with me here, .) Arch your lower back as much as possible, and let your hand travel with your body so that you end up with your hand stretched as wide as possible. Imagine that you are pushing your body to arch with your hand. Now contract your hand and "pull" your pelvis up into your belly button. Tuck your tailbone under as much as possible. Arch, then tuck, then arch, then tuck. Again, feel where neutral is. That is where you should be.

Feel that your abs are toned, but soft. Feel that your shoulders should be down and relaxed, but somewhat back. Learn to realize what this feels like.

Posture--
Stand with your feet together, arms at your sides, nice and relaxed. Pelvis neutral, shoulders neutral. Now, imagine that there is a shelf above your head and you need to get something down. (If you're married or living with a SO imagine, "Honey, will you come here and get the winter blanket off the closet shelf?!" *cough* Not that I've ever done anythign like that. Anyway.) What are you going to do in that situation?

Stretch your arms up, bring your weight forward just a bit. Feel your core tighten. Feel your weight come forward toward the balls of your feet (I generally think of it somewhere between arch and ball). Feel how you want to make yourself taller, but don't take your heels off the ground. Feel the stretch, and the weight shift. Now put your arms back down to your sides, nice and relaxed and neutral.

Another image that I tend to use for myself when it comes to posture is to image there is a hook picking me up at the top of my spine/base of my skull. That hook is pulling up--making me taller, tipping me forward just a bit. My head is forward--just a bit--naturally...not pulled back, tensing my back and putting my weight back, just natural. While the hook is pulling me up and making me taller I relax, an imagine my skeleton taking all of the weight and responsibility of keeping me up. Muscles are loose and comfortable. Arms hang nicely. Tall and relaxed.

Embrace--
This is what I find hardest to describe. Imagine cradling a baby--think of how caring and gentle and protective you're going to be. Don't squish, and don't drop. I know my teacher used to use a cradling motion/postion for his right arm to describe the embrace, and his hold was very nice. To start out, keep your right arm parallel to the ground, roughly along the line of her bra strap. Cradle her with her side against your bicep, and your hand along her other side. Cradle. Don't squish, don't clamp, don't force, and don't "drop."

For your left arm...generally equally between the two of you is comfortable. At about shoulder-ish level. I don't find it comfortable if it's dropped more than that, but having it up high isn't comfy either. As you get more used to it, there are lots of different variations--bring it in closer to your bodies, holde that hand on your chest between you, all kinds of things.

Hope some of this helps!

 

[opendoor]

put in a cast

.. I'm 'pushing' her right arm far too far. When I draw my own back, it stops being comfortable for me...

Just stand upright, and let the follower find her postition instead. Your left arm may not push her right arm at all (I know there are different opinions). Think of your left arm as plastered in a cast (see below). No pressure at all, though connecting very subtly. Your arms follows the movements of your upper torso though as if there was no shoulder joint (but it must still be flexible and soft). Your right hand is behind the followers right shoulder blade so that your finger tips can reach the wire of the bra. But your right arm may not push or constrain your partner, too. It is more kind of an enclosure or fence the follower can move freely in. The position of your right arms is fixed to your torso as is your left arm. By no means hold fast onto your DP. If you want to dance in the apilado style position, let the follower build up the lean. But stand on your own axis.

 

[UKDancer]

Think of your left arm as plastered in a cast (see below).

Good grief: if my left hand was a far forward as THAT, she'd be in agony!

'It's just a big hug', someone said at class a week or two back, but I hug someone with both arms, not just my right, and keeping the handclasp of LH to follower's RH in between us feels nothing like a hug!

[And Thank You to Peaches]

 

[jfm]

Harsh but being totally honest: IME of the UK scene, 5 years for a good dance (in milonguero style); 10 years+ for a good and satisfying dance in salon/nuevo style.
Sorry Maybe I'm just too rubbish to have nice dances with beginners yet.

 

[TangoTricia]

... What makes it 'nice' or 'comfortable'?

we were shown a tip in the very early days of classes, though it took quite a while for it to sink in: Point your elbow down to the ground, and keep your arms still so they only move as a result of movements of your torso/spine. There may well be a lot more to it, but this will take you a long way to not feeling un-comfortable. Think of the advantage a raised elbow gives you in arm wrestling, and avoid it in the embrace

One of the habits I'm trying hard to break is to take anything like my 'normal' ballroom tango hold with an AT partner.

I have a hunch that a lot of the instinctive aversion to BR we hear from the AT community is an unconscious response to exactly this mismatch in the embrace.

It would be fun to try out the embrace together, do you ever come south to dance?

 

[bordertangoman]

Harsh but being totally honest: IME of the UK scene, 5 years for a good dance (in milonguero style); 10 years+ for a good and satisfying dance in salon/nuevo style.
Sorry Maybe I'm just too rubbish to have nice dances with beginners yet.

I hope to prove you wrong with my students; already they have their moments after 4 months of classes ( and little between)

but I would agree;5 years, but its also doing to flying time. but for me 2 years was when I got grounded, and made an exponential leap; but very few good nuevo followers around, so i dont bother..

 

[AndaBien]

...May I ask other leaders what they think are the key skills and range of actions/moves (not choreographed figures - I'm not interested in those) that are the minimum to be able to get up and not feel that it is an impertinence to expect a follower to accept an invitation to dance?...!

Generally, I think it takes guys about two years to become competent, more to become good. If you are competent, women will be happy to dance with you. You must not think that fancy steps, or lots of them, are needed to be a good dancer. Doing basic steps musically and expressively is required, but it takes guys a long time to figure this out. A dance with very simple steps can be exquisite.

Steps needed (apilado): walking forward, center, left and right; side steps; careful ochos, fwd and bk; molinete ccw; gently rocking your partner. And, don't forget to dance plenty of pauses.

A traveling teacher and fine dancer once told me that when guys asked her to dance they usually pulled out all the stops, trying to be fancy enough for her. But she wished they would just relax and give her a nice, calm, simple dance.

Lastly, you must drop that BR styling, which you worked so hard to achieve. AT is a different dance.

 

[ant]

I think it all depends on whether you are leading through the chest/core or through the arms/shoulders. If you are leading though the chest I would go for it, after you have sorted out your embrace, if you leading from the arms/shoulders I wouldn't at this time.

Regarding the embrace I would suggest you get some proper tuition, I don't think you will get it right any other way.

As regards the other advice on steps, music and dropping your BT knowledge I agree with that.