How to acheive the "Magic" Embrace

[ant]

For me, the follower has to have the "right" kind of embrace (whatever that means, although some type of head contact is helpful), plus she has to do the "surrender" thing. My part (at least partially) is to simplify what I do, and not disrupt things. The steps really become unimportant (mostly walking & rock steps, and maybe an occasional turn or ocho).

If I don't feel that kind of embrace, then after a feeling out period, I'll be dancing more for the steps (rather than the connection). i.e. Going for fun, rather than something deeper.

That pretty much sums up my experience at the moment but I would say the connection as well as the embrace.
Over the past two weeks I been away on two tango festivals (12 days and 5 days). There were three partners I felt like that with. They had different body shapes, different embraces and different styles but the connection we had allowed our movements to be totally smooth, with no feeling of the slightest pull, jerk or anything like that. Three totally smooth partners but three totally different styles.

The other thing that surprised me was that they were not dancing as frequently as others so I can only assume others did not get the same connection I did. Personally I would would have been happy dancing with any one of them all night.

 

[AndaBien]

A teacher whose opinion I value greatly said that the best leaders should change their style each time they dance with a different follower and it should be the follower that does not need to change...

That's an interesting concept, but I doubt that it's true in the vast majority of cases. Are you saying the leader provides the movements, the timing, the nuance and expression, but not the style? By "style", do you meant the type of embrace?

 

[ant]

That's an interesting concept, but I doubt that it's true in the vast majority of cases. Are you saying the leader provides the movements, the timing, the nuance and expression, but not the style? By "style", do you meant the type of embrace?

Thanks for asking the question but to be totally honest I am not sure.

What she did say however was that a good leader would look different with each follower he danced with rather than the follower looking different with each leader she danced with. She felt it was incumbant on the leader to change his way of dancing to make the follower feel comfortable and at ease rather than the follower finding ways to accomodate those aspects in the leader.

 

[Captain Jep]

Remember that she is quite likely to have just danced with someone else who embraces and dances very differently from you. As we discussed in another thread, the follower typically changes to adapt to the various leaders more than the opposite.

....
So it can take a minute to shake off what was working for the previous leader and switch to what will work for the next leader. I even heard a well known teacher one time talk about how he didn't like when his regular partner danced with certain other leaders because he could "feel them all over her". It would take her awhile to shake off the effects of dancing with that other leader and move the way her partner wanted her to.

If the previous leader required a considerable effort from the follower to keep up with him, accomodate some quirk, or in some other way make an adjustment to what comes easily or naturally to her, she might have this in her muscle memory for longer than even she would like. One of the advantages of tandas is that you can figure the first song might be an adjustment period and you have 2 more to really enjoy being sync'ed up.

The bad thing about tandas is that you just danced a certain way for 10 minutes and switching gears might take some time.

So my rather long-winded point is that sometimes, its not so much about whether the embrace itself is "exactly what works for followers", but that the follower in question feels that she can relax and "find her bliss" before she has to start dancing.

Thanks Zoops for a great post. I sometimes forget this when one of my favourite tracks comes on and I have to dance it....

 

[bastet]

Thanks for asking the question but to be totally honest I am not sure.

What she did say however was that a good leader would look different with each follower he danced with rather than the follower looking different with each leader she danced with. She felt it was incumbant on the leader to change his way of dancing to make the follower feel comfortable and at ease rather than the follower finding ways to accomodate those aspects in the leader.

I'm going to guess that this is probably more in keeping with what Zoopsia and dchester were talking about. The leader changing the types of things he leads to accommodate what he senses as the follower's "comfort" level more so than her embrace style, though with the nicer people and dancers, embrace is probably a bit of a negotiation anyway. So if a follow isn't good at rhythmic movement, then he leaves it out or if she can't do volcadas, well, leave those out. So every dance will look a bit different depending on what part of his vocabulary (if any) gets nixed.

Also, there may or may not be some perceived need for one partner to adapt more than another out of maybe respect for them. ??? Just a thought. I think I run in to this sort of thing sometimes as I prefer close embrace, though most people in my area do not dance a true close embrace. Sometimes a lead I dance with will attempt to accomodate my preference, but as Zoopsia mentioned, not many people are that good at doing multiple embrace styles and so I usually end up trying to get back to open with them at some point, since we tend to have common ground there and I can dance that easier than someone who has had little training in apilado suddenly attempting close embrace. I'd rather be open than dance in that "in between" embrace.

 

[ant]

... The leader changing the types of things he leads to accommodate what he senses as the follower's "comfort" level..

I tend to agree with part of this, what he senses, but not neccessarily in relation to the follower's "comfort" level if this is a reference to her ability level but rather senses what the follower wants led at that moment during that track.

I do have this thought that a good leader accepts that he leads within the confines of what he is allowed to lead within the confines of what the follower wants led. What the follower wants led may not neccessarily relate to her comfort level if this this is a reference to her ability level but rather what she feels within the embrace, the music and the room at moment in time.

Basically the leader should make his follower do exactly what she feels not what she thinks the leader wants and however that ends up he has to find a way to accommodate.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I understood exactly what you meant. What I was trying to ask was, that the initial embrace and preparartion is only a part of the answer. Does a whole lot more happen whilst you are dancing for there to be that majic.

or is it exactly as Jantango posted

Or should that post read a woman knows after a few few seconds if there is a chance of having a good dance depending on the embrace. After that it is about stepping with the music and the feeling of wellbeing the embrace continues to give.

My personal opinion is that we have a much better chance of making "magic" when we focus on connecting and bonding with our partner which are emotional processes, not just a physical ones.

I think there are too many people in tango whose primary focus is on evaluating the dancing of the partner (which in addition to being counterproductive if the assessment is negative, also means involving an intellectual process towards the partner)

Even those who don't do that may be stopping short of the emotional process and instead expecting to find some physical position of the bodies that alone makes all the difference.

When Jantango speaks of the follower knowing pretty quick if she is "safe", I think she may mean more than just physical safety. I certainly mean more than that. (hence the long "what women want" thread)

Its been awhile since I danced with a total stranger, so I can't say how easily or quickly a follower determines that emotional safety. It may vary quite a bit from leader to leader. It may be that she feels safe and gets whammied by surprise. Or it could be that she's uncertain and the leader puts her at ease as the dance progresses.

I've no answers, really... so I'll shut up now.

 

[Zoopsia59]

She felt it was incumbant on the leader to change his way of dancing to make the follower feel comfortable and at ease rather than the follower finding ways to accomodate those aspects in the leader.

It seems to me (yes, I'm talking again.. you didn't expect it to last, did you?) that BOTH need to be capable and willing to make these adaptations. I'm not suer it really is for the leader to do the bulk of it. However, since in practice it seems that often the leader is doing little of it, perhaps it is important for the bulk of the emphasis to be on telling this to the leaders?

 

[ant]

... I'm not suer it really is for the leader to do the bulk of it. However, since in practice it seems that often the leader is doing little of it, perhaps it is important for the bulk of the emphasis to be on telling this to the leaders?

What you seem to be saying is that the follower does it by default because the leader does not do it.

My personal opinion is that we have a much better chance of making "magic" when we focus on connecting and bonding with our partner which are emotional processes, not just a physical ones.

Hence your post above.( and thanks for the insight that post gave)

The more the leader focuses on the connection and bonding with his follower the more the follower can relax.

If a leader is successful at this, assuming he wants to be, I suspect the more confident his follower becomes in doing what she feels and not what she thinks the leader wants. When this happens the more tender and gentle she becomes with that leader. At least that is what I have found.

 

[dchester]

I do have this thought that a good leader accepts that he leads within the confines of what he is allowed to lead within the confines of what the follower wants led. What the follower wants led may not neccessarily relate to her comfort level if this this is a reference to her ability level but rather what she feels within the embrace, the music and the room at moment in time.

Basically the leader should make his follower do exactly what she feels not what she thinks the leader wants and however that ends up he has to find a way to accommodate.

This is a different approach from what I try to do. Possibly I'm just not skilled enough to know what the follower wants to be led (at least not in advance), or I'm not understanding the essence of what you are saying.

The only time I have some clue that she wants something different is when the follower does something else from what I am leading (either the step or the rhythm). Although it takes me a little time to figure out if she's not understanding my lead, or if she's simply ignoring it and doing her own thing. However, for me that doesn't in any way facilitate "bliss" or "connection" (as she's dancing for the steps).

 

[AndaBien]

I like the idea that the leader leads a movement, then when the follower begins to actually do that movement the leader begins following his partners' movement. At the end of that movement the leader again gives another lead, then becomes a follower again momentarily. So, the leader constantly alternates between leading and following. (Lots of shades of gray in there). The follower doesn't do any leading, per se, but she does confidently do the movements she feels. Of course, at least IMO, if a movement isn't working, I quit leading it.

I do think leaders should be sensitive to their partners' ability and personal manner. But still, on the whole, I expect my partner to dance the way I do, much more so than me trying to dance the way she does.

 

[Steve Pastor]

I'd rather be open than dance in that "in between" embrace.

Amen!

 

[Zoopsia59]

I'm just not skilled enough to know what the follower wants to be led (at least not in advance), or I'm not understanding the essence of what you are saying.

The only time I have some clue that she wants something different is when the follower does something else from what I am leading .

I imagine its much easier to figure out what she does NOT want to be led, than what she DOES want to be led.

 

[AndaBien]

...I do have this thought that a good leader accepts that he leads within the confines of what he is allowed to lead within the confines of what the follower wants led. What the follower wants led may not neccessarily relate to her comfort level if this this is a reference to her ability level but rather what she feels within the embrace, the music and the room at moment in time...

I imagine followers would appreciate a clear, gentle, but confident lead, much more than they would want a lead that is trying to figure out what they want to do.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I like the idea that the leader leads a movement, then when the follower begins to actually do that movement the leader begins following his partners' movement. At the end of that movement the leader again gives another lead, then becomes a follower again momentarily. So, the leader constantly alternates between leading and following. (Lots of shades of gray in there).

I suspect that this is quite an advanced skill to get. I'd caution that while trying to develop this skill, a leader might start doing what a leader I danced with recently does (and now I'm wondering if that is why... hmmm)

He initiates a lead. Then as I try to follow it, the whole thing seems to die in the middle of the weight transfer. There is no continued momentum to the step I was led and I feel hung up in the middle of the weight transfer in an uncomfortable way. Any attempt to finish the weight transfer feels as though I am now backleading him through a step.

I realize that in certain cases, this may be an intentional attempt to do something, but when EVERY step feels this way, there's something amiss. On almost every step, I'd get to the point that I was just taking my trailing foot off the floor to move it to "collect", but I couldn't QUITE get to the collected position because the momentum would stall just before I could get my weight solid over the new standing leg. He'd just Stop. Moving. At all. Nothing forward happening anymore. But not after I'd completely my transfer and achieved neutral for the next thing (I can stop there just fine) Just barely before that as my foot moved to collect. Suddenly, movement halted before I could get there. Every time.

Even at the time, I thought "He gives a lead for a step, then expects me to do it without him while he stays where he is and waits". Now I wonder if he was attempting what you say. He gave a lead then was going to follow ME through its completion except that I would have had to actually pull him to make it work.