How to build a tango community?

[ant]

I think the area needs to be receptive to the idea, more than anything else. Jokes aside, tango seems to be more appealing to areas which are a bit more, I dunno, "bohemian" than "working class"...

I understand where you are coming from but arguably the most successful small tango community in Europe is at El Corte in Nijmegen (pop150K). Although this is a university town it is not particularly "bohemian". However it does have the first ingredient you mentioned a prime mover, Eric.

Originally Posted by Dave Bailey
- Sacrifice your principles,
originally Posted by dchester
Finally, something I know how to do.

DC what I have noticed about people that have been successful in the UK setting up small communities is that they have stuck to their principles. They have all believed in Salon style dancing to mainly Golden Age music.

I think this is your vision as well, therefore if I was you I would stick to what you believe in and not sacrifice your principles.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Gee thanks, and I thought 20 was going to be difficult.

I think I read somewhere that a tango community needs a minimum of 70 committed members to be viable. That's not "70 people on the facebook group", that's "70 people who want to participate".

Dunno where that number came from ... but it sounds reasonable. Only a small percentage of even committed members will attend each evening - people have lives, and other stuff happens.

 

[Dave Bailey]

I understand where you are coming from but arguably the most successful small tango community in Europe is at El Corte in Nijmegen (pop150K). Although this is a university town it is not particularly "bohemian". However it does have the first ingredient you mentioned a prime mover, Eric.

That does seem to be key. If you have someone who's, well, insanely committed to promoting tango, full-time, then you get results. Steve Morrall is another example of this.

DC what I have noticed about people that have been successful in the UK setting up small communities is that they have stuck to their principles. They have all believed in Salon style dancing to mainly Golden Age music.

It depends on the audience.

For example, with the example you gave, I know for a fact that their first few months, their own classes had less than 10 attendees on average. And that's with the support of a large dance organisation for side-marketing and promotions. Whereas their classes for that dance organisation regularly had 40 attendees or more, and they definitely weren't into traditional.

And if you look at an industrial city like Birmingham, the traditional scene there is near-dead, despite Loyd and Sandra spending years of effort to encourage it.

I'm not seriously suggesting abandoning all principles and going for the quick buck. I'm simply saying that a younger audience is more likely to be encouraged, initially, by nuevo movements and music. So one approach is to offer (something of) what the audience wants, and then educate them once they're hooked.

 

[ant]

I know for a fact that their first few months, their own classes had less than 10 attendees on average.And that's with the support of a large dance organisation for side-marketing and promotions. Whereas their classes for that dance organisation regularly had 40 attendees or more, and they definitely weren't into traditional..

During the first few months they wre all alone and the side organisation has not helped the numbers for the tea dance milongas. I can't comment on the classes. The increase in numbers for the tea dance milongas has come from other communities coming in groups, teachers bringing their pupils, good write ups from bloggers and lots of networking.

And if you look at an industrial city like Birmingham, the traditional scene there is near-dead, despite Loyd and Sandra spending years of effort to encourage it.

Agreed.

I'm not seriously suggesting abandoning all principles and going for the quick buck. I'm simply saying that a younger audience is more likely to be encouraged, initially, by nuevo movements and music. So one approach is to offer (something of) what the audience wants, and then educate them once they're hooked

I think the crowd you are suggesting is very transient and not a good base on which to build a successful tango community. Golden Age music/Salon style dancing is universal and builds a much more stable community and if that fits with DC's vision then why do something different?

 

[Zoopsia59]

Hmmm.... I think you will always be in the position of barely scraping by because you are so close to a major metropolitan area with a solid tango reputation. I don't say that to discourage you. You can build a strong community, but only if you expect it to break even rather than be profitable. Anything beyond that is gravy.

Chances are that as students improve, they will be more willing to travel and hour for instruction, and you will have only a few advanced people in the early stages. Once your community is large enough, you can bring someone over from the larger communities knowing there is a market. For now, I would definitely back burner paying anyone expensive. Build it and they will come.

It seems to me your best bet at this point is to figure out how to deveop the community with as little cash outlay as possible rather than making bringing in funds to pay for things a priority. The biggest cost outlay is for venues in the beginning so you need to find places to do things that won't charge you.

Our practica here is done through agreement with a restaurant. The group is not charged for the venue, but a good portion of the proceeds go to the restaurant. This arrangement could also include discounts for drinks or food. Some of our milongas work the same way. This works especially well on evenings that restaurants usually don't get much business.

A ballroom studio might be willing to let you host something in their space in exchange for a portion of the "take" (or all of it) as well. Remember, you're not trying to turn a profit.. you're trying to get as many people participating as you can without spending your own money. The ballroom studio might be willing to have you teach a beginner AT class also.

Colleges do have the issue of a transient population, but it seems to me that a student who leaves after a few years has still spent more time devoted to tango in your community than the average adult who gives up after 2-6 months. Grad students are often a better bet than undergrads, and they are less bothered by the age differences. But you should expect to cater to the younger crowd somewhat by playing alternative music. Limiting your scope to a specific style of dance and/or music is shooting yourself in the foot. As we know, quite a few people love the fantasia stuff to alternative music at first, and develop an appreciation of the traditional stuff only after some time in tango. So indulge them until you get them hooked.

I like the idea another poster had about teaming up with a Salsa group. Latin usually has a much bigger turnout. Free mini intro lessons done at other dances can generate interest. The trick is in what to teach in that kind of situation. You can't approach it the way you would the first lesson of a series, because you can't get them excited enough in a 20-30 minute intro class if you focus on embrace, walking, and elementary stuff like that.

I hope you are already doing pre-milonga lessons at every milonga. You can also have mini-lessons before practicas.

Does your area have some sort of monthly 1st night (or last night, or whatever)? Around here, there are several of that sort of thing on various weekends. One of the cities does a First Friday and another does a Final Friday. The shops in the walking district stay open late, there are special events, concerts, etc. In warm weather parks have outdoor events. It's all sponsored by the city and at no charge. Sort of mini version of New Year's Eve "1st Night" celebrations. Often you can get a free lesson and practica into a space somewhere as a draw, and there are people wandering in and out of venues who will be intrigued. We actually had one in a bank lobby one time.

To get a good core group, you need a lot of people because so many don't stick with it. So you need lots of exposure and lots of opportunities for people to join in.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I think the crowd you are suggesting is very transient and not a good base on which to build a successful tango community. Golden Age music/Salon style dancing is universal and builds a much more stable community and if that fits with DC's vision then why do something different?

I disagree.. while students do graduate and move on, if they are around for their entire education, that's still longer than the average adult beginner sticks with it. Also, students tend to do stuff in packs. So you get a few hooked, you'll get more without doing any additional marketing yourself. Even though they move on after graduation, most students have friends that are in later class years, so they provide their own turnover population.

 

[ant]

I disagree.. while students do graduate and move on, if they are around for their entire education, that's still longer than the average adult beginner sticks with it. Also, students tend to do stuff in packs. So you get a few hooked, you'll get more without doing any additional marketing yourself. Even though they move on after graduation, most students have friends that are in later class years, so they provide their own turnover population.

I was talking about nuevo dancers, not students.

However when talking of a university population relying on students is tough and especially students that want to dance nuevo style. However if you can get to the right part of the university population that helps. In Cambridge the salon/golden age group have managed to attract and so hold onto the lecturers, long term researchers and administration staff. By contrast there is another group in the town that specialises in nuevo and they struggle to retain people.

 

[AndaBien]

... while students do graduate and move on, if they are around for their entire education...

That's a big "if". We have a tango group on campus at a local university. It seems to me that most of the students there use the lessons as mere recreation. Most of them never appear at milongas.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Clay Nelson gets a lot of credit for being one of the founders of the Portland tango community, and two (plus) large tango festivals.
Link to page on his web site

http://web.archive.org/web/20120628091051/http://www.claysdancestudio.com/building_community.shtml

 

[dchester]

Hmmm.... I think you will always be in the position of barely scraping by because you are so close to a major metropolitan area with a solid tango reputation. I don't say that to discourage you. You can build a strong community, but only if you expect it to break even rather than be profitable. Anything beyond that is gravy.

My only financial goal, is not to lose a lot of money. I'm definitely not undertaking this to make money. I'd be willing to spend/lose some money, as long as it was one time thing. I just don't desire to lose a lot of money every month.

 

[Dave Bailey]

My only financial goal, is not to lose a lot of money. I'm definitely not undertaking this to make money. I'd be willing to spend/lose some money, as long as it was one time thing. I just don't desire to lose a lot of money every month.

The weird thing I've noticed, being semi-involved in parts of this game, is that the money you charge for attendance may have almost no bearing on the numbers who attend.

Last year, I ran a 4-hour workshop, £25 per person, there were about 25 attendees. The week after, as a "thank you" to people, I ran a free 2-hour practice session, where I'd be on hand to give advice and guidance. And the latter one - the free one - had 6 attendees.

Which still boggles my mind.

So, unless you're aiming at people who really are on low / fixed incomes (e.g. students), the pricing probably won't make much difference.

I'm not sure if that helps you much - the only advice I'd give is to minimize costs to as little as possible initially, but that's pretty obvious really.

 

[UKDancer]

I'm sorry if this is slightly off topic, but I was interested to read the comments about the relative size of communities, and some anomolies here in UK. Manchester I'm not familiar with at all, but Birmingham is my nearest big city, with Worcester close by too. For it's size, Birmingham does seem to struggle. Loyd & Sandra have seemed to be unable to maintain even a monthly milonga (but perhaps their teaching commitments have ben more important?). They're just starting again, next month, but their social events were few and far between last year. There's nothing in Worcester, at all, but another group, further south, in Malvern (where Loyd & Sandra are regular guest teachers).

I'm puzzled about the whole setup. There are enthusiastic and dedicated dancers in the area, and you see many of the same faces at all sorts of events, but nearly everyone is travelling 60-90 minutes to find even a weekly opportunity to dance in a milonga. There are more practicas, obviously, and several of these have become informal milongas in all but name. But I'm still puzzled by the lack of opportunities to dance. Dave Bailey significantly understates the size of the population of Birmingham (not the city limits, but the greater Birmingham urban sprawl), which stood at over 2.2 million in 1981 census. That's a lot of people.

One of the Birmingham teachers started a beginner's class the other week and reported over 60 attending, and Loyd & Sandra posted a Facebook comment about 'all these people'. Goodness, I know from my own classes, that the fall out rate is high, but where do all these people interested in tango go to? Perhaps a real issue for them is that there isn't anywhere for them to go, and they give up, within weeks or months.

The reason that I'm interested in the question, is that it has crossed my mind to try and actively encourange more social dancing in this area by organising some. I'm not keen to lose money in the process, but I'm worried that there is something in the Midlands' psyche that means it would be a waste of time, because the level of dancing on offer now is a fair reflection of the demand, and adding to the supply will only add to others problems.

 

[Dave Bailey]

I'm sorry if this is slightly off topic, but I was interested to read the comments about the relative size of communities, and some anomolies here in UK. Manchester I'm not familiar with at all, but Birmingham is my nearest big city, with Worcester close by too. For it's size, Birmingham does seem to struggle. Loyd & Sandra have seemed to be unable to maintain even a monthly milonga (but perhaps their teaching commitments have ben more important?). They're just starting again, next month, but their social events were few and far between last year.

It's weird - Birmingham is the UK's second largest city, you'd think on population alone there'd be a big dance scene. And that's no reflection on L&S - they work hard, they're committed and they're good teachers I think.

But it seems that it's simply not fertile ground.

Dave Bailey significantly understates the size of the population of Birmingham (not the city limits, but the greater Birmingham urban sprawl), which stood at over 2.2 million in 1981 census. That's a lot of people.

Yeah, I was talking about the city rather than the whole area - but that makes it even more strange. I mean, blimey, 2 million people and only one small AT community?

The reason that I'm interested in the question, is that it has crossed my mind to try and actively encourange more social dancing in this area by organising some. I'm not keen to lose money in the process, but I'm worried that there is something in the Midlands' psyche that means it would be a waste of time, because the level of dancing on offer now is a fair reflection of the demand, and adding to the supply will only add to others problems.

Well, that occurred to me too. I know that the Midlands, historically, was very poor in terms of venues for Modern Jive, at least up until a few years ago. I used to regularly see lots of "dance commuters" from the Midlands to London on Friday / sat nights, for example. That's changed now, I think, but certainly that used to be the case.

I'd hesitate to say something generic like "Brummies don't dance", but I do wonder if there's at least some truth in that. You have to think, if talented and committed people can't make it work that well, then maybe there's no demand for it in the first place.

BTM may have some comments on this...?

 

[bordertangoman]

reply; my totally unscientific impression of Birmingham dances is they would rather be dancing salsa; it may have more cultural resonance and maybe its just cooler.
The uni group seems to be more regularly attended. There seems to be little mutual support between the groups - the dancers do go different events but the organisers do not. I dont wish to say anything derogatory about anyone...so I'll stop there.

Manchester people dont seem to want to travel further afield and I have heard accounts of how they are not welcoming to people they do not know.

 

[Captain Jep]

reply; my totally unscientific impression of Birmingham dances is they would rather be dancing salsa; it may have more cultural resonance and maybe its just cooler.
The uni group seems to be more regularly attended. There seems to be little mutual support between the groups - the dancers do go different events but the organisers do not. I dont wish to say anything derogatory about anyone...so I'll stop there.

Manchester people dont seem to want to travel further afield and I have heard accounts of how they are not welcoming to people they do not know.

Werent the Javier&Andreas weekends there quite successful? And didnt Kicca travel up to teach there once a week? I'm surprised : I thought at least there was something of a scene, not one struggling to survive.