How to improve musicality

[Rabbit]

Question to dancers without a musical education: Do you believe music theory has been useful to you when it was mentioned in dance classes? Or was it more effective to work directly with what you hear?

 

[Brummbaer]

But you can't explain tango and also not every other dance just by time signature or the strong and weak beats.

But time signature is a start, and most start there when considering music. Rhythm is the development from there of how the notes are arranged and weighted within the measure. I'll withold judgement until I see how it develops.

Interesting also to see the approach to AT as a musical style or as dance. I've heard well-known AT dance pieces played by a distinguished conservatoire rendered completely undanceable but 'musical' and 'listenable'. Hence my comment regarding 'ballroom'.

So, at the moment, insufficient information to make a judgement.

Tango comes from the slums, not from the ballroom. If you no longer feel or see that, then it's dead
Carmen Calderón

 

[Brummbaer]

Question to dancers without a musical education: Do you believe music theory has been useful to you when it was mentioned in dance classes? Or was it more effective to work directly with what you hear?

It's been useful to map the 'rhythm' explanations on to what I know as theory and from experience playing an instrument. I find the 'theory' has given the terminology and structure (sort of 'naming of parts', or compare names given to dance elements). For example, you don't need to know the 8CB to dance AT (we didn't start there), but it helps as a frame of reference.

 

[itwillhappen]

Question to dancers without a musical education: Do you believe music theory has been useful to you when it was mentioned in dance classes? Or was it more effective to work directly with what you hear?

For me it was effective to cope with musical theory offline, in my own pace. I think it is best suited for self study of all things.

 

[itwillhappen]

Tango comes from the slums, not from the ballroom. If you no longer feel or see that, then it's dead
Carmen Calderón

The beginning is correct in a certain respect, but was necessarily correct in the first and not in the second revival of the tango. And there is no justification for the conclusion.

 

[tangomaniac]

I cannot recommend this article.

View attachment 5277

-The author combines extreme basic musical knowledge with information about "Argentine Tango". But you can't explain tango and also not every other dance just by time signature or the strong and weak beats. The rhythm is the crucial aspect. If the author mentions tango again in a sequel, he must catch up on marcato, sincopa, 332 and arrastre.

-The author cannot distinguish between tango as a musical style and tango as a dance form. The sheet music and graphics suggest a musical focus, but the text clearly shows that the content is related to the dance style. He has not yet learned to differentiate can't really analyze music.

-The author is simply uneducated. This is particularly evident in statements such as "Cha Cha and Mambo begin on the second beat.." The editor of a newsletter must not let such embarrassments get away, unless he is as uneducated as the author. Both examples of course start on1, especially the vocals and many instruments or solos. Those who cannot distinguish between steps and musical instruments should not have the say at all.

I finally figured out your problem. You don't know how to dance latin. The man begins with the left foot going forward into a rock step (2-3), then comes cha-cha-cha (4&-1).

Cha Cha comes from Mambo so Mambo also begins on 2.

Because you're wrong about dancing latin, I can't accept anything you wrote.

 

[Brummbaer]

And there is no justification for the conclusion.

That variant dies, or evolves into something different. [Social] AT forms nowadays aren't identical to those of 50, 60, 70+ years ago however much people try to maintain their interpretation of that 'tradition'. Dance steps have evolved, but have a lineage going back to those times. We draw some things from these old milonguer@s. Music and music production has evolved: majority is now recordings, often cleaned up and enhanced with better sound systems rather than live. Presentation is formal and different (TTVTTM). And then we have/had nuevo and it's legacy.

But in the topic, we now talk of 'musicality'; then it was just danced as the music of the day with an intrinsic understanding. So, to me, something has been lost, or not yet found again, and we're looking for it; to feel it - maybe intellectually to put into reality.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Question to dancers without a musical education: Do you believe music theory has been useful to you when it was mentioned in dance classes? Or was it more effective to work directly with what you hear?

Not much, no. Of course, my knowledge of music theory is miniscule.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

But in the topic, we now talk of 'musicality'; then it was just danced as the music of the day with an intrinsic understanding. So, to me, something has been lost, or not yet found again, and we're looking for it; to feel it - maybe intellectually to put into reality.

So perhaps we are over-intellectualizing with all the musical theory. That's a question.

 

[Brummbaer]

So perhaps we are over-intellectualizing with all the musical theory. That's a question.

Yes - and no. I'm not Argentinian. It's not my culture. I'm not from the slums (although I've known and worked in the multicultural slums of Manchester and Liverpool in the 1960's). I also know something of other European cultures. I've got a joint honours university degree in maths & physics, and I've worked in many aspects of state-of-the-art computer systems. So how do I understand AT in my locale?

I'm not going to do an immersive cultural appreciation of current BsAs culture. AT has a history and the time-machine needs more work.

So, yes in one sense, it's over-intellectualized. But what alternative option do I have from some locale on the outer fringes of western Europe? It's not necessarily digging into it, but some aspects enter through osmosis.

I'd also agree that a musical expert may not appreciate the nuances for dance, but they may contribute to understanding.

 

[Rabbit]

So perhaps we are over-intellectualizing with all the musical theory. That's a question.

I think learning the musical language is important but I'm not myself convinced that theory is a worthwhile lens for that if the goal is to dance. One can simply listen and reproduce a rhythmic pattern directly, for example

But in the topic, we now talk of 'musicality'; then it was just danced as the music of the day with an intrinsic understanding. So, to me, something has been lost, or not yet found again, and we're looking for it; to feel it - maybe intellectually to put into reality.

I think there are two main ways to get that intrinsic understanding, and this really applies to any musical genre. Either grow up with the music as part of your culture, or approach it with good listening skills, what could be called general musicality. Otherwise it's like hearing sounds in a foreign language which could be pleasant, but one doesn't understand the meaning of.

 

[Brummbaer]

I'm not myself convinced that theory is a worthwhile lens for that if the goal is to dance.

I agree. It's just that I have some limited music theory, and it's a useful hook to hang it on with a shared terminology.

Either grow up with the music as part of your culture, or approach it with good listening skills

Same with language learning: immersive cultural change (living there and forced to communicate and absorb the culture), or being taught/learning by some means.

 

[opendoor]

...Cha Cha comes from Mambo so Mambo also begins on 2.

I know, and sorry for not being clear enough in my comment. Indeed, we start dancing cha cha and mambo on 2 (at least in the basic). But the author mentioned on 2 in a musical context, but not in respect to steps or technique. The music in cha cha and mambo still starts on1. Listen to the music with eyes closed, follow the melody instrument, but not the clave. If someone wants to explain something, he should be precise. I even suspect that the author is not well versed in music theory. He uses the (actually superfluous) graphics with time signatures and note values to feign competence. But of course that's just a guess on my part. Maybe he's just a bit insecure and the ballroom community isn't particularly critical on this topic either. Please also link the sequels. We'll see if I'm right.

 

[itwillhappen]

The music in cha cha and mambo still starts on1. Listen to the music.

Tango music starts often with an intro.

 

[opendoor]

tangomaniac, I'm starting to suspect you're the author. If I had known that, I would of course have expressed myself more politely. But first I saw the opportunity to bash him together with you.