How to improve musicality

I agree that vals should be smooth and flowing. My dislike of hard stops (particularly paradas) mid-vals is a specific expression of a general dislike for valses that are jumpy or broken in some way. Which said, I'm not convinced that any of the classic vals timings is inherently fluid or broken. I suppose 1-2-3 is most fluid, and then 1-1-1, with 1-2-1 and 1-3-1 being potentially jumpy if your 2 or 3 is some kind of sudden, jerky thing because you're not flowing through it. Generally, I only dance Biagi valses that way.
 
I am a little bit late again but I wonder if someone could post a performance clearly using these variations 1-1-1, 1-2-1, 1-3-1, and 1-2-3? or are all the performances like that? with correct vals structure?

Or post an example when it goes wrong?

By now way are you a bit late, your reaction is just syncopated. ;)
Sorry, but IIRC the best vid on that topic came from your side:

This maybe could be helpful for some of your friends!

Music section starts at 3.25 min



(I am living a kind of Balmaceda & de la Rosa revival period :) )
 
Argentine vals appears to be a topic of some contention.
After a dream vals tanda, I talked to a tranguera about our imagination. Hers was "We are a couple of figures on a wedding cake" mine was "She is a princess and I am the dance officer of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy with lots of tinsel on my shoulder". Appearently that Disney stuff worked.
 
I think it is part of musicality to be able to create the movements so they clearly express the music and music type. I have sometime played with this by watching dance without music. Can I see that it is vals or tango or milonga?

Here you have a d'Arienzo vals -When you turn off the sound what cues there are in vals direction?

 
I agree that vals should be smooth and flowing. My dislike of hard stops (particularly paradas) mid-vals is a specific expression of a general dislike for valses that are jumpy or broken in some way. Which said, I'm not convinced that any of the classic vals timings is inherently fluid or broken. I suppose 1-2-3 is most fluid, and then 1-1-1, with 1-2-1 and 1-3-1 being potentially jumpy if your 2 or 3 is some kind of sudden, jerky thing because you're not flowing through it.

Any rhythmic pattern can be danced fluid or broken, it's down to how you step. Stepping quickly, holding, and then accelerating into the next step makes everything staccato. The reverse if the feet never stop moving, it creates a continuous line.

After a dream vals tanda, I talked to a tranguera about our imagination.

The one I usually get is "we're flying".
 
Argentine vals appears to be a topic of some contention. I'm definitely in the camp which says "vals is supposed to be more smooth and flowing than tango", but there's obviously another camp out there that propagates dancing it quite staccato like 3/4 tango, and most performances at milongas seem to do it that way (for the record I really don't agree with it). so I'm not sure how authoritative we can be abiout how vals should be danced.

To play devil's advocate I think it's musically justifiable to dance d'Arienzo valses in a staccato style. (but I don't actually like d'Arienzo valses.)
I prefer to dance vals tandas more smoothly and uniformly than tango tangos. They seem to lend themselves to such movements.
 
Generally, I only dance Biagi valses that way.
Generally, I only head in the opposite direction to the dance floor for Biagi valses.

As for moment feel, I'm very much in the 'soft and flowing' camp. Soft rebounds, yes; hard stops, no. As someone whose vocabulary shrinks during vals tandas, I find most followers are very happy if you are on the music, keep it flowing, and keep it soft.
 
Generally, I only head in the opposite direction to the dance floor for Biagi valses.
Biagi has some great valses, but they demand active interpretation that's hard on the brain late at night!
As for moment feel, I'm very much in the 'soft and flowing' camp. Soft rebounds, yes; hard stops, no. As someone whose vocabulary shrinks during vals tandas, I find most followers are very happy if you are on the music, keep it flowing, and keep it soft.
I use to be terrible at vals . . . so terrible that I sought specific private coaching in it for years. As a result, my vals now stronger than my tango or milonga, which I continue to regard as bizarre. So, I confess to looking forward to the challenge of a difficult vals.

However difficult it gets, I agree that flow matters – usually turning, always advancing, and never stopping except between musical paragraphs. I'm less sure about softness. Among my partners, harder movements that generate things like 1-boleo(2-3)-1 or 1-gancho(2-3)-1 are appreciated. These are usually produced by sudden reversals in the sense of a turn, sending the free leg somewhere safe-but-interesting.

I find that one can dance Biagi this way: with flow, though perhaps not with softness. Which said, I only figured that out this year, after most of a decade trying to figure it out.
 
First post here after lurking for quite while. A lot to read. (Some of you are quite opinionated and there were comments that made me want blow up - good thing I didn’t register till I had read more and forgot what I was going to strongly disagree with. Not this thread, though.)



I enjoyed this thread, especially the discussions about emotions and need or non-need to learn music theory and the dialogue between partners about what leader and follower hear in the music.



My 2¢ opinion:

I think musicality in how we interpret tango music into movement is actually closely connected to the reasons we find that dancing tango is a very sensual activity. It’s not necessarily just the proximity to our partners, the way you hold their bodies and possibly imagine holding them in a horizontal position instead. No, I think the connection we experience around the abstract emotions we try to express while dancing has a lot to do with imagined feelings ranging from passionate drama to lighthearted romantic feel-good associations. Music is abstract. Even when there are lyrics, we might not pay attention to them or even understand them if in another language. Music doesn’t really MEAN or illustrate anything. It’s up to the interpreters to put some inflections into their way of playing a line, or the composer to write into the score certain dynamics and pauses etc he/she wants the interpreter to express, or it’s up to the listener to make associations to some imagined or experienced emotions or meanings that might correspond. A child prodigy musician might use the relative drama of a fairy tale and conjure up dragons and princesses to express a wide range of emotions. A mature adult who might have experienced significant losses and/or love, war, and what not, might put those associations into how he/she interprets or listens to (or composes) a piece. And the result might be very very similar. It’s abstract.



Back to the sensual part.. I, personally, when I dance to a particularly dramatic late-period Pugliese piece, conjure up lived or imagined passion from love stories, stories that are epic movie drama material. When you feel you are so alive that all emotions are magnified in intensity. And then if the next tanda might be a light-hearted happy waltz, well let’s express the light-hearted happy feeling. I don’t care if my dance partner is thinking of dragons and princesses while I’m reliving the most intense memories of my life, or say, compassionate emotions from some tear-jearking Hollywood movie - since it’s all abstract, we can find ourselves on the same page in our collective interpretation.
 
I had the experience some months back dancing with some stranger at a festival in a city I had never danced in before (big city, famous tango scene) … it was a late-night Pugliese tanda. I had just danced an awful clumsy tanda and was ready to leave, because if anyone had seen me dance like that, I wouldn’t be getting any good invites after that, for sure. Oh, but it’s Pugliese! So I put heart heart and soul into it, thinking this would be my last dance. I gradually realized the guy was very experienced, he had decades more tango years than I had. He was obviously pleasantly surprised, because he had only seen me dance a banal and awkward milonga - I have no idea why he even asked me up, maybe simply because the crowd was thinning out. Oh my! I remember so many vivid details from that tanda. At the end he blurted out ‘that’s gotta be better than sex’ and ‘where have you been all my life, that’s how I like to dance Pugliese!’ We had gone through all the epic drama love story emotions from extreme tenderness to rough, angry, high energy passion in just one tanda. I felt I knew him, I had a clear impression of his personality, temperament, and how he’d treat a woman intimately. All because we had a similar response to abstract musical elements. We had been on the same page with respect to the tension and release in the music.

Then, a polite ‘thank you’, and barely even exchanging names. More words might have ruined the feelings we were left with. That sensation of allowing tango to remind us we are alive.
 
A child prodigy musician...
I would like to point out something about this: I have listened to many child prodigies on the piano, and the best I can say about them is that they are excellent in terms of technique; they follow the sheet music exactly and precisely. Unfortunately, in all cases, there is no soul in what they play, and what flourishes, rubato, texture, and variations in dynamics they include in their playing is mostly learned from their teacher. The dramatic movements, the slow raise and drop of their hands, or the way they move their heads; most of these actions are learned behaviours.

True, they might be talented — or they might just have demanding parents and excellent teachers that drill them into perfection.

This isn't to say that they don't feel a wide range of emotions. But the music they produce are incomplete and empty. Compare them with pianists such as Bill Evans, or Rubinstein. They cannot express emotion or feeling at such a young age, which I attribute to immaturity, lack of experience with the world and an inability to express what feelings they have. It is when they grow and develop that their music can truly communicate. Furthermore, I would argue that the same piece played by a child prodigy would sound the same if played by another prodigy, if they shared teachers.

Does it sound good? Why not, since most people only hear and hardly listen to the music. It is enough for them to hear something that sounds difficult to play, or at a dazzling speed, and consider it fantastic. In that moment, they forget the composer, and think the prodigy responsible for everything they feel.

If you consider what a child prodigy adds to the piece other than technical perfection, well, you are left with nothing much at all. They are, in essence, living automatons, trained monkeys with a small spark.

It is the same way in tango; the music is already there, as you have said, and whether it has lyrics or not, it evokes very different or very similar (and anything in between) emotions and feelings in us. But a child prodigy is very much like a kind of technically perfect leader, who can lead anything perfectly, step to the music perfectly, adjust and compensate for the follower's every action. Watching him dance would certainly be enjoyable. But this same leader does not develop much of a connection with a follower, even though his embrace is exactly as she wants it. He can follow the music perfectly, but it is merely abstract for him. He can seem anguished, or in love with his follower, or smiling happily, but he does not convey actual feeling or emotion; it is an act. There is no soul in what he does.

That being said, maybe the follower is very attracted to him, and it is more than enough for her to be dancing in his arms, and she feels wonderful. Perhaps the connection is very much present in her own mind. But whatever the case, it can still be enjoyable, because the music is good and the leader is technically perfect.

In the same way, we can enjoy a Chopin piece with no dynamic variation that is played by a child prodigy, because of its inherent nature. But when we listen to Horowitz play the same piece, then you can hear the emotion, the little mistakes, the variation in tone and texture and dynamics that make it sing, bring it to life, and touch the soul. The former is then markedly superficial.

The child prodigy considers the piano as merely a tool; such a dancer views his follower in a similar fashion.
 
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P.S.: I hope I do not sound like I am trying to gatekeep music in any way — I think it is perfectly alright for people to enjoy music in their own way. I think that child prodigies, in my own mind, are similar to dancers I have seen who look flashy, are technically proficient and can dance a wide variety of steps, but then the followers who have danced with them tell me that it was more about the steps and athleticism than the music or the connection (which includes sharing or conveying feelings and emotions) with them, even though he might have stepped and led perfectly to the melody or the rhythm. This disrespect to the music is aggravating. They may as well have been dancing to Coolio's Gangsta's Paradise (which I very much enjoy listening to!).
 
..hope I do not sound like I am trying to gatekeep music in any way...
Hi, pianistamediano, I learned English at school many years ago. I would describe my vocabulary as rather mediocre or bad. Thus I don't understand entirely the use of gatekeeping in your post. I associate (I'm German) with it rather a selective bouncer, who lets some in, others not.
 

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