How to improve musicality

[opendoor]

..don't think it's musicality, one doesn't need to understand the music..

Your idea of musicality is completely wrong. Musicality is the intuitive, non-cognitive reaction to music.

 

[Bailango]

Oh, not necessarily. Developing a discerning taste comes out of hearing things better, maybe, but more musicality doesn’t have to mean you become more picky. It can also mean you can make the most out of each song.

It can be interpreted the other way, too, that some of those people who are very picky with the songs they dance to, are only able to dance to those types of songs. It’s not a badge of honor to sit out because of the music. Of course, hopefully the music is inspiring, but still.

I have a contrarian view. If I had to dance to music I don’t feel like dancing or inspiring, I can dance to it with the same level of musicality as the music I like. I find it very strange that people have a list of songs that they can dance to. I also don’t like dancing to music whose rhythm is foreign to the dance. I could dance tango or salsa to pop or blues. Does it mean I should. I am of the school that says because something can be done doesn’t mean it should be.

Dancing less inspiring music with a follower I like to dance with will be more musical than dancing a music I like with a follower that is irritating.

Whether it is tango or salsa or pop or any genre, I am uniformly picky. I only like music that appeals to my ears. Especially for dancing. Music appreciation is different. I don’t have to like music to appreciate its composition, structure, effort required to play it, etc.

 

[Bailango]

Musicality is the intuitive, non-cognitive reaction to music.

Exactly!! It is an intuitive response. Hence no need to know a music piece beforehand. It could be something you have heard before or never heard. Shouldn’t make much difference. As a dancer the more tools you have in your toolbox to express, the better it gets. Sometimes one may not have the a right tool because of lack of practice or skill. That hampers ability to express. I don’t have any set mapping that goes if the rhythm is playing this way, then dance these set of steps.

One doesn't even have to know the specific music to dance it musically. If you're at least a halfway decent dancer, that's a function of the music's structure. You can dance it at first listening.

I think this is easier for people who dance intuitively. Dancing to me is like solving a math equation. I don’t need to have seen it before. As long as I know the first principles, I should be able to solve the equation.

There are many dancers who approach dancing like it is an algorithm. They know a set of algorithms. They will use those to solve what’s given to them. Give them something different that can’t be solved with the algorithms they know and they will be very unhappy.

I saw Bandonegro on November 10. I didn't know anything about their original compositions . . . I was there not as a fan of them, but as someone who attends all tango events with live music simply because we don't get enough of them. Anyway, their original pieces were structured like classic GA tangos, so despite having never heard them in my life, I was able to hit accents and pauses that I simply assumed had to be coming, and nail the finale. It wasn't harder to dance to those tunes than to, say, Tanturi or Biagi tunes I'd danced to hundreds of times.

They were here a couple of months back. They played one set which was more like a concert music. The dance floor had people sitting and listening. They played two longer sets to which the floor was open to dance. It got packed. I liked their energy and music. Was one of my best tango nights of recent times.

No, you just don't like to dance to it, which is entirely fine but not the same thing at all.

Yep

"Undanceable" does happen, but more often than not because some composer got too ambitious with wild shifts in key and signature (transpositions, modulations, or whatever they're called . . . I'm not a musician).

Or very different melody and rhythmic arrangement. A random example say chacarera rhythm. Fun to dance or tap. May be I could dance milonga to it. But it will feel very odd. Or very slow melodic folk music from China or Japan or zouk music. I wouldn’t want to dance tango to it. I could do tango steps to that music too. It won’t be enjoyable to me. In the context of tango dancing, that type of music to me is undanceable.

Then there are certain tango music where music moves in a challenging way to dance. It can be fun challenge. But when I see others in the ronda struggling I will say it is not danceable by average tango folks.

 

[JournalInTime]

I think this is easier for people who dance intuitively. Dancing to me is like solving a math equation. I don’t need to have seen it before. As long as I know the first principles, I should be able to solve the equation.

This is me, and I've put boldface on the part that speaks to me. I live my life this way . . . It is most likely also why I spent 10 years on theoretical particle physics, why I cook and mix drinks without recipes, and why I write creatively. I seek to learn the theory behind the practice and then apply it almost freeform to whatever comes along. I don't find examples – phenomenology, empiricism, whatever word you like – all that useful. I need to know the highest-level rules and after that I'm good.

There are many dancers who approach dancing like it is an algorithm. They know a set of algorithms. They will use those to solve what’s given to them. Give them something different that can’t be solved with the algorithms they know and they will be very unhappy.

Algorithms can still be part of high theory, but I get what you're saying: Some people need closed-form solutions rather than infinities, specific elements rather than sets or spaces, and so on. They don't do well with extrapolation. I don't dance this way and can't really grasp how it would work, but I acknowledge that those people exist.

They were here a couple of months back. They played one set which was more like a concert music. The dance floor had people sitting and listening. They played two longer sets to which the floor was open to dance. It got packed. I liked their energy and music. Was one of my best tango nights of recent times.

Similar experience here. They played some Piazzolla and Piazzolla-inspired pieces at one point – it seems like a thing most modern tango orquestas want to do – and it wasn't especially great for dancing. But all the rest was amazing, and it's hard to believe four guys make all that music. I'd have killed for a singer to join them, though.

Or very different melody and rhythmic arrangement. A random example say chacarera rhythm. Fun to dance or tap. May be I could dance milonga to it. But it will feel very odd. Or very slow melodic folk music from China or Japan or zouk music. I wouldn’t want to dance tango to it. I could do tango steps to that music too. It won’t be enjoyable to me. In the context of tango dancing, that type of music to me is undanceable.

Oh, I meant strictly within the realm of tango and its sister dances. There are tangos that stay within the realm of very Western music with nothing coming in from elsewhere, yet they change key or switch between 4/4 and 2/4, and sometimes even toss in 3/4 outside of vals (or stick 4/4 in the middle of a vals). It's all very creative, but not so wonderful for dancing.

Then there are certain tango music where music moves in a challenging way to dance. It can be fun challenge. But when I see others in the ronda struggling I will say it is not danceable by average tango folks.

That's different. Everybody has their "thing." I happen to dance best to fast pieces (esp. D'Arienzo) and highly syncopated pieces (esp. Biagi), but I can dance to most stuff, and also have a soft spot for slow, melodic, regular music. But I see dancers just give up on various orquestas, especially Biagi.

 

[JournalInTime]

Dancing less inspiring music with a follower I like to dance with will be more musical than dancing a music I like with a follower that is irritating.

This.

I get more inspiration from my partner than from any music. I seek partners who listen to the music as well as to me, and who expect me to listen to them as well as to the music – partners who participate, propose, and provoke, who are present and active. Dancing with them is a conversation, and can be fun even if the music is almost background noise. I recently had an excellent tanda to the most plodding OTV music imaginable, with a follower who somatically agreed that the music was plodding, so we had to liven it up.

Dancing with passive, only-hears-the-music-through-me followers is boring even if the music is amazing. I recently had a terrible tanda to my favorite Pugliese pieces with a follower who wasn't grounded and who insisted on floating and kicking and flicking to music that fairly screamed: "This is deep. This is heavy. Pause. Breathe. Stay in the floor."

 

[Miradamiranda]

Topic is interesting right now.

Bandonegro played at an event I went to last spring. They did two nights in a row. One was for dancing, the other was not. The dance floor was configured as a concert hall. They clearly distinguish between listening and milonga music, which is fine IMO.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

No, you just don't like to dance to it, which is entirely fine but not the same thing at all.

Over time you develop very distinct likes and dislikes. That would seem to me to be a logical development if one is paying attention to the music. Certain things speak to us more than others.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Musicality is the intuitive, non-cognitive reaction to music.

But it's not used in that sense with respect to tango. For most tango dancers, it refers to the ability to interpret a song according to its musical structure. It's something that has to be learned. Now, some people may pick it up faster than others, but it still needs to be learned through practice and exposure to the music.

 

[Bailango]

But it's not used in that sense with respect to tango. For most tango dancers, it refers to the ability to interpret a song according to its musical structure. It's something that has to be learned. Now, some people may pick it up faster than others, but it still needs to be learned through practice and exposure to the music.

I know tango music has structure. What do you mean by the bolded in the context of musicality, and expressing it in the dance. I express musicality or try to based on the phrase and its rhythm/melody.

 

[Miradamiranda]

One thing is to be precise and together with the main rhythmic components and respecting the most important aspects of the rhythms.
Another thing is to musically illustrate little details, ‘point out’ for example some cool texture in the parts of the music that’s not in-you-face foreground material. (At the risk of Mickey-mousing if overdone.)
But structure… when I’m on the same wavelength with a partner who really hears and connects with the tension-release aspects of a piece and the phrasing of a piece, now that’s a different level. Especially when combined with the above. Now, with the risk of losing my anonymity, I have to give kudos to @dchester, who, when I danced with him the first time, some years ago, that was the first thing that stood out in my memory. And although it’s been a long time since I’ve danced with him, he’s one of the first ones who comes to mind with the topic of expressing the structure with tension and release.

I know tango music has structure. What do you mean by the bolded in the context of musicality, and expressing it in the dance. I express musicality or try to based on the phrase and its rhythm/melody.

 

[opendoor]

...not used in that sense with respect to tango. For most tango dancers, it refers to the ability to interpret a song according to its musical structure...

You may be right, but I've lost sight of this clientele.

 

[Bailango]

One thing is to be precise and together with the main rhythmic components and respecting the most important aspects of the rhythms.

Yes. To me that is the lowest common denominator when it comes to expressing the musicality. It needn’t be precise as long as it conveys the idea of main components and important or most obvious elements of rhythm/melody. I also consider that the minimum someone can do with the musicality. Or unfairly I will call it half musicality.

Another thing is to musically illustrate little details, ‘point out’ for example some cool texture in the parts of the music that’s not in-you-face foreground material. (At the risk of Mickey-mousing if overdone.)

Mickey-mousing gets stale and boring after a while. Make you wonder whether it is really musicality or mechanical. Is there improvisation? Opinions will differ.

Regarding little details within the music, as an intuitive dancer I do it sub-consciously. I am not consciously listening to certain details and then reacting to it. There is a lot going on in music and there are many layers. I know within my dance I am responding to details in one layer or the other. I am picking and choosing. Probably by the phrase. I can’t point out which ones, and why and how of it if you were to ask me later. Showing me a video tape won’t help either. It is all an intuitive reaction. I know it happens in my dancing due to feedback/compliments. For example a few tango musicians after dancing a tanda with me have said that I hear music differently (compare to usual tango dancers). They meant it as a compliment that I danced to some details that other dancers miss. I am not a musician and my guess is that as musician they were appreciating attention to some aspect. One particular professional musician once appreciatively pointed out that I syncopated to subtle things in the music that others completely miss. For life of me I had no idea which details they were referring, when I did something that was being complimented or why I did it!

But structure… when I’m on the same wavelength with a partner who really hears and connects with the tension-release aspects of a piece and the phrasing of a piece, now that’s a different level. Especially when combined with the above.

Indeed there are certain people with whom you have musicality compatibility. It happens within the dance. Continuing from previous, I have no idea of what, how, and why I or the follower decided to express a certain way. What is clear is that the musicality conversation is flowing fluently, we are speaking the same language, we are not talking over each other or interrupting the other, there is a harmonious “my turn, your turn” flow. To clarify it could be “my turn, my turn, your turn, my turn” or “my turn, your turn, your turn, your turn, my turn” dictated by the phrase. It just happens with a right partner. I never dissected how, why, or when it happens. I just know it is there with some partners, with some partners it is there one day and not the next, never there with some. I will say people can be grouped by their dance personalities. Certain groups are compatible with certain others and not compatible with some others.

When I hear the word structure, I instantly think of how the music is arranged. And the commonality of arrangement within a genre.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I know tango music has structure. What do you mean by the bolded in the context of musicality, and expressing it in the dance. I express musicality or try to based on the phrase and its rhythm/melody.

Well, shaping your dance to match the configuration of the music. This can be done in different ways, by trying to follow the rhythm with your steps, by following the melody where melody is prevalent, or even by following the singer if that's appropriate. It varies from song to song, obviously. It's the difference between how someone like Gavito dances Pugliese and how someone else (pick a dancer) dances Pugliese, for example. They are different expressions of musicality for that particular song.

 

[LadyLeader]

After personal musical listening comes musical leading, and this is primarily dominated by which impulses the partner can follow without stress, especially at milonga rhythm.

And so he begins calmly in the 2nd phrase, with his closing sidestep on 4 clearly beside the rhythm. And he can't help but emphasize the end of the phrase, by the 7+8 he lands on the right leg and quickly switches to the left - without a reference in the rhythm - so that he can start uniformly with the right for his students.
Likewise with the squares in the next phrase, the steps on 4 and 8 beside the rhythm, it hurts to dance along. But it's a good introduction so as not to spread stress, and it has a musical appearance because he can walk confidently. And only in the 4th phrase does he start with the typical traspie hammering with 1+2 3+4 5+6 7+8. This also doesn't always exactly fit with the music, you can see it clearly in slow motion, but it's just a workshop summary and not a performance.

Yes there are performers who want to place every step exactly but I don't think Achaval is in that group. I believe you but in this milonga there are something else catching me powerfully.

We have also had a conversation about Tete Rusconi's feet, seldom hitting the floor synchronized to the music but her feet were on music. His feet were mostly a supporting, service function to give her possibility to keep the time.

Personally I think that dancers can place the music connection/ expression to different part of the body - shoulders, hip, legs, feet and so on. Focus areas are on time but the other just roughly so.

[At a private she told me that too many crusada steps during a milonga tanda turns it to a tango.
Have you heard about this rule/ guidance? ]

 

[Rabbit]

[At a private she told me that too many crusada steps during a milonga tanda turns it to a tango.
Have you heard about this rule/ guidance? ]

I think a step like forward-cross-forward or back-cross-back is in character for milonga, but dancing in tango's cross system or doing those figures with sidestep -> walk into cross is generally out of character.