Having been a pedestrian in Quebec City, I can't say that surprises me.
How to teach floor craft ?
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Numawan
Well-Known Member
Not convinced that stand-alone floorcraft lessons are the right formula. First of all, who should learn floorcraft? Obviously, beginners should be the primary target group, as they are probably not even aware of the existence of that concept.
Whether in Europe, the US, Argentina or elsewhere, I believe that most beginners are learning tango by attending a group class once a week. Personally, I think that floorcraft should be teached after 2-3 months of beginner's classes. That is roughly the point where the most daring beginners decide to attend their first practica and/or milonga.
Beginners don't have a clear view of what they need to learn. They simply go to their weekly lessons and expect their teachers to tell them what they have to work on. If their teachers tell them that they need to work on floorcraft, they will simply go along. I consider thus that floorcraft lessons should simply be part of the normal curriculum for beginners.
I don't think that teaching floorcraft should take a lot of time. Over a full year of weekly lessons, one or two lessons dedicated to floorcraft + regular reminders of basic principles during normal lessons should be more than enough. The reality is that most of the real learning will take place during milongas and/or practicas.
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Yes, it was called a practica.
Yes, but a practica isn't a milonga. And some have degenerated to the practicalonga (which has its place). I agree that a practica ought to be the correct place.
As has been discussed many times, there's a real dearth of real practicas in some locations.
People travel. Some teaching isn't so good. It's only about steps and sequences. So, they turn up at a milonga with no real social AT experience (but maybe ballroom AT, or similar, and are branching out). Not forgetting that some advocate learning at a milonga and that group lessons are useless - so they go off too early to explore the social AT world.
I think we're just agreeing that teaching standards are sometimes not so high, and don't always include appropriate levels of floorcraft for beginner social AT dancers. But, in a social dance with no official standards, and no history of codigos, that's today's world. Anyone can proclaim themselves a master and an expert, or to be 'good enough'; it's only experience and diversity which shows up the standards.
How do we check people who just turn up?
In our early days I used to contact the organiser, describe our status, and ask.
Maestro Conejo?
Has some kind of a ring to it. Are you in a country where anyone can claim to do anything without qualifications and experience? If so, then why not?
LadyLeader
Forum Master
In some traditional stories the students have actively sought the master and when they find one they have to serve in some way to get the masters acceptance. Why not possible in tango?
How does a passive seeker behave?
JournalInTime
Forum Master
The whole issue of "masters" is fraught with landmines.
Where I live, if I wanted to teach dance at a university that grants diplomas in the arts, I'd have to have such a diploma myself. If all I wanted to do were give lessons in social dance to people on the street, I could hang out my shingle today and tell people whatever lies seem fun. The proof would be in the pudding – if I were terrible, I'd quickly run out of students – but there would be no real repercussions. It isn't as if secret agents of the Agencia Federal de Inteligencia would come for me in the night . . . even the Better Business Bureau wouldn't care, unless I didn't give all the hours of lessons someone had paid for.
Most "traditional stories" with masters and students aren't set in times or places with free markets, paid instruction, and the hamster wheel of jobs, bills, and taxes. The masters mostly have no visible means of support. The students mostly have lives they can just put on hold.
And even if a master were to work for free – say, they're independently wealthy – they'd never find a student if they demanded the student prove themselves, never mind serve. There are just too many people with no standards who are happy to teach at the milonga for free, and as I said above, they're under no obligation to prove they're any good.
I honestly believe that if everybody who danced tango had to find a master, prove themselves, serve, and finally apprentice, "everybody who danced tango" would be about eight people in the world. Well, at least that'd solve the floorcraft problem!
That's the case for tango everywhere I've heard of. Does anybody who's reading this live in a place where, to teach tango, you are legally obligated to have some sort of external certificate or degree, or to pass a test, or to be able to produce a lineage or pedigree of instruction? I've never heard of such a thing!
Where I live, if I wanted to teach dance at a university that grants diplomas in the arts, I'd have to have such a diploma myself. If all I wanted to do were give lessons in social dance to people on the street, I could hang out my shingle today and tell people whatever lies seem fun. The proof would be in the pudding – if I were terrible, I'd quickly run out of students – but there would be no real repercussions. It isn't as if secret agents of the Agencia Federal de Inteligencia would come for me in the night . . . even the Better Business Bureau wouldn't care, unless I didn't give all the hours of lessons someone had paid for.
Because money changes hands. The master who doesn't charge soon starves. The one who does charge soon has to accept everybody who shows up . . . or they'll gain a reputation as snobby, and starve. In the free market, money poisons the master-student relation.
Most "traditional stories" with masters and students aren't set in times or places with free markets, paid instruction, and the hamster wheel of jobs, bills, and taxes. The masters mostly have no visible means of support. The students mostly have lives they can just put on hold.
And even if a master were to work for free – say, they're independently wealthy – they'd never find a student if they demanded the student prove themselves, never mind serve. There are just too many people with no standards who are happy to teach at the milonga for free, and as I said above, they're under no obligation to prove they're any good.
I honestly believe that if everybody who danced tango had to find a master, prove themselves, serve, and finally apprentice, "everybody who danced tango" would be about eight people in the world. Well, at least that'd solve the floorcraft problem!
The getting the masters acceptance has some options. They start by accepting everybody, and the students that dont agree with what the master is teaching, they leave. It isnt even a question of quality, just maybe different ideas of what the dance should look like.
And after awhile, even though all students pay an equal amount, some become 'more accepted/worthy' and favours are shown outside of lessons. For better or worse, the options are many.
From the more or less subtle ones of who is the master spending more or less time on a milonga to who gets invited to events or who gets introduced to other masters or recomendations to invite only events and more.
And after awhile, even though all students pay an equal amount, some become 'more accepted/worthy' and favours are shown outside of lessons. For better or worse, the options are many.
From the more or less subtle ones of who is the master spending more or less time on a milonga to who gets invited to events or who gets introduced to other masters or recomendations to invite only events and more.
I'm with @JournalInTime. Master-apprentice relationships only work when each has something non-concrete to offer the other, and a deep incentive to stick with it through challenging moments.
For professional trades, this dynamic is pretty obvious. The apprentice gains the knowledge and experience necessary to one day become a master themselves. The master gains the benefit of the apprentice's labor. Low quality labor, it must be said, but there are plenty of tasks in every trade that are not highly skilled.
I do not think the master apprentice relationship can be applied to a vendor and buyer. The incentives are all wrong. Most buyers are in the buyer's position precisely because they aren't (yet) interested in the drudgery and deep commitment of becoming a master themselves. And a master in the vendor's position is obliged--or at least incentivized--to accept money from everyone, just as @JournalInTime said.
In other words, the artist will sell their art to anyone who asks. But they'll only take on apprentices that they think have the potential to add to their craft, and then the relationship is not principally a question of money. Most dance lessons are set up more like the former relationship, not the latter. We are buying the art.
For professional trades, this dynamic is pretty obvious. The apprentice gains the knowledge and experience necessary to one day become a master themselves. The master gains the benefit of the apprentice's labor. Low quality labor, it must be said, but there are plenty of tasks in every trade that are not highly skilled.
I do not think the master apprentice relationship can be applied to a vendor and buyer. The incentives are all wrong. Most buyers are in the buyer's position precisely because they aren't (yet) interested in the drudgery and deep commitment of becoming a master themselves. And a master in the vendor's position is obliged--or at least incentivized--to accept money from everyone, just as @JournalInTime said.
In other words, the artist will sell their art to anyone who asks. But they'll only take on apprentices that they think have the potential to add to their craft, and then the relationship is not principally a question of money. Most dance lessons are set up more like the former relationship, not the latter. We are buying the art.
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LadyLeader
Forum Master
(my earlier try took us in an unexpected direction)
You have a today unusual learning path and many times such results in unusual insights.
I am interested in the reasons behind your rule that students should not search actively for a teacher. What do you see as problems if students are active?
LadyLeader
Forum Master
In tango I can have different roles but most of the time I am only a participant on a course, I am part of the crowd providing the economical base to a master, teacher without any deeper relationship to them. There are other times when a teacher or a couple can present the theory or aspects of dance in a way easier to understand and they win my heart. I happily pay the fees, return to their courses and show my appreciation when we meet. I think of that as a service, a dedication to these people who help me become better.
Not always but sometimes this can become a two-way communication. A student's deep, sincere commitment can be life-giving for a teacher too.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
This is why I think master-master relationships are more useful in tango. Where I live, certain teachers work with each other at a very advanced level to expand what it is they can explain to their students. No money changes hands – it's a collegial exchange of favors. Everybody has an incentive to stick to it because it will make them better at their trade and build stronger bridges to their peers.
I dream of being part of that. It'll never happen, but a person can dream.
This doesn't benefit non-masters much. On the other hand, when talking specifically of floorcraft, perhaps it could: If people at every level would call each other out for bad floorcraft, it might have a net positive effect, because it wouldn't be seen as somebody snobbishly talking down or daring to talk up, but rather as a peer giving friend advice. And while a beginner- or intermediate-level peer might not be in a place to talk of technique, it's clear at any level of dance when someone is a raging road hazard, and justifiable to honk the figurative horn.
The thing that's most wrong, I think, is that – at least in Western society (and perhaps elsewhere . . . but I live in Canada, not China or Nigeria or whatever) – the buyer is traditionally in the "master" position and the vendor in the "servant" position. The person spending the money is in charge, they're right, they're entitled to request that the thing they're buying be just so. The person taking the money is supposed to smile, nod, and let the customer be right.
So, wherever dance lessons are being sold, the students are in charge. Anecdotally, I can confirm that I've been in classes where people have stated this aloud: One Ms. J. I was accompanying said to me, "I heard what the teacher said. I really don't care. I'm paying them to be here." And we also had it at the university, where students had the attitude that as they were paying tuition, the professors owed them an education.
I don't think tango has the participant base or cultural importance to change that. And of course that's at the root of bad floorcraft, too: "I paid at the door. I have the right to dance here. People better not get in my way."