How to teach floor craft ?

[Brummbaer]

Well, that's not something you can act really, a bad dancer can't act like a good one because they lack the skills.

True (just need to bring yourself to watch Strictly/DWTS). But if you have the skills, sometimes you have an off-day, or an off-tanda. Sometimes you just go home early, but others you recalibrate and it's ok again.

When I didn't feel like dancing, but went anyway, I have sometimes been told that it felt good - I'd relaxed and was on auto-pilot. Which is why we practice, so that the dance becomes natural rather than a stilted choreography. The maestro makes it look effortless, but it isn't.

I don't try to ... copy their style.

To some degree we all do with specific steps/moves invented/developed by some maestro. But we put our own mark/style on that.

I'm not trying to get the attention of that young lady I fancy any more (although that might not apply to some/many), so in some sense I don't need to look my best to get attention, so my emphasis has changed.

 

[LadyLeader]

Nobody wants to look like a bad dancer. OK, dance like no one is watching you - but they are. Some future follower maybe.

This was exactly the reason I started to take classes again!
There were several visiting followers who comment how surprisingly good it felt. My translation was that the surface of my dance needed some action so I get the dances I like. My dance needs to look as it feels for an experienced follower!

Otherwise I do not mind so much about looks. If there is serious flow or real fun I am happy!

 

[Rabbit]

The maestro makes it look effortless, but it isn't.

It can be. I don't claim to be a maestro, but the steps actually do feel effortless to me, with a well matched partner!

 

[Brummbaer]

It can be. I don't claim to be a maestro, but the steps actually do feel effortless to me, with a well matched partner!

It's all relative perception - from where you are as 'good enough'. If you're happy and having fun where you are that's great.

But back to 'floorcraft'. It depends what you're dancing. Simplistically in a busy-ish milonga to, let's say, a demonstration dance rather than a performance (that gets us into another realm).

On one you don't want to get in other people's way, force them to change, etc. The other, maybe, you want to fill the floor to give everyone a view from all angles, and all directions depending on space. The milonga may be more us(couple)-centric. You don't care [too much] if you fluff something and recover. You want a good flowing dance. OK, maybe you want to impress the next follower just a bit.

You give a demonstration. You want the steps, body orientation, abrazo, head, etc. to be, let's just say 'worthy'. People are watching. You're going to have put some work into getting that sufficiently good. You want it to look smooth and effortless, good timing, interpretive, centred - and informative. Two bodies in unison, etc., etc. That's the effort the 'maestro' (or teacher) has put in. It's the equivalent of Dolly Parton's: "It costs a lot of money to look this cheap".

Two different interpretations of 'floorcraft'. One is milonga survival; the other is presentation skills within the floor space. Both can be taught and learned.

(BTW, not putting myself as 'maestro', but had the honour to work and train with some in other fields)

 

[Rabbit]

Hmm if you're talking about demonstrations / competition / performances now, I'd say most of them neither look effortless nor show insightful interpretation, because the focus tends to be on executing steps and sequences. I'm probably going to get some flak for saying this, but I think AT dancers including "maestros" tend to not be as strong in choreography as dancers from other disciplines

 

[Numawan]

I find that a very strange statement. From what I have seen, I find on the contrary that tango performances are much stronger on choreography than performances from most other disciplines.

One aspect of that is that tango music and tango dance technique provide a lot of choreographic options compared to many other dances. I would classify West Coast Swing as another partner dance that offers a lot of choreographic things to play with. At the other end, it seems to me that Viennese Waltz for example doesn't offer many choreographic options. But it is a dance that fits tightly and nicely to its specific type of music.

Another dimension is the talent of the individual maestros and maestras. I have no doubt that there are talented dancers in all disciplines. Not obvious to me that there are fewer of them in tango.

 

[Brummbaer]

Hmm if you're talking about demonstrations / competition / performances now,...

Just getting back to topic. The original reference was, I thought, very specific at some high-ish level and dismissed what might be termed 'social' dancers who could have no idea until they'd ascended to the appropriate level. Just trying to identify some dance activity which a 'good' dancer might find and learners could identify as different from the normal milonga. Rather than a grand, choreographed, competition performance, take it as something you might want to give to illustrate and promote social AT to some other local group. The point is that it's different. I guess there's going to be some need to promote AT when it's safe to get back.

We've been through specific courses, which didn't seem to work, although there seems to be sufficient poor floorcraft to justify something. My own experience with AT was more of a drip with each lesson.

 

[itwillhappen]

I attended many workshops with famous tango dancers. Unfortunately nobody recognized me. I was never interested in knowledge and skills; I was interested in being accepted into the succession. For many years my goal was to become a tango teacher, and a very good one, of course. But I stayed homeless. You know that knee osteoarthritis finally prevented my career as a tango teacher.

Isn't that overwhelming a dance culture like tango, which has not developed a widely accepted higher art form, in particular no broad dissemination of knowledge at university level such as ballet? Or to put it differently - are there many examples of tango gurus who have developed dedicated successors to tango gurus?

 

[Rabbit]

Just getting back to topic. The original reference was, I thought, very specific at some high-ish level and dismissed what might be termed 'social' dancers who could have no idea until they'd ascended to the appropriate level. Just trying to identify some dance activity which a 'good' dancer might find and learners could identify as different from the normal milonga.

No, that wasn't my intention and I hope no one was offended. I meant really that there's a whole bunch of external appearance stuff that people often focus and spend a lot of effort on, that doesn't really make their dance feel any better. I believe that good fundamentals and musicality just automatically look good. From the point of view of promoting tango I think there's some value in dancing in public spaces, and if there's multiple dancers present to have the floorcraft to do some of the tango "signature" moves without hitting each other or spectators - I feel people find these moves cool/sexy/impressive enough to draw interest.

 

[opendoor]

...guess there's going to be some need to promote AT when it's safe to get back..

In the BR world, social dancing is mostly neglected because the ambitious dancers collect metals and keep to themselves. But the competition circus acts as a motor to fill the dance schools. There is nothing comparable with tango. Ideally, all levels meet at the milonga. The tango mundiale is hardly noticed outside of our scenes. Maybe the cinema will play some role: there are always great tango movies with great radiance. The tango upper class usually meets(met) at exclusiv encuentros, but encuentros usually are closed shops without any publicity. (And cool moves also are not seen there). Perhaps we should go outside the door more often and have flashmobs in the heart of our cities.

 

[itwillhappen]

I remember not being able to give a lot of attention to floorcraft in the beginning. Not nothing, but other things such as not constantly stepping on the lady's feet were more important to me.
Later, when I was able to dance halfway, I didn't need any special courses or instructions, they probably didn't exist at the exact time either, but I just paid more attention to floorcraft.
For me this is an aspect of good dancing, a more intuitive one, not something that should be taught in isolation. And even in group lessons, you don't make yourself popular if you're constantly bumping into other couples.

 

[Numawan]

That fits very well with what I suggested earlier in this thread:
https://www.dance-forums.com/threads/how-to-teach-floor-craft.49404/post-1144135

As a beginner, you almost immediately realise that you need to manage floorcraft once you start to go to your first milongas/practicas. Some prior instruction on the basic principles of floorcraft, and on some useful techniques to implement it, is useful. No need to overdo it. The rest will come with experience.

 

[Tangogal]

Isn't that overwhelming a dance culture like tango, which has not developed a widely accepted higher art form, in particular no broad dissemination of knowledge at university level such as ballet? Or to put it differently - are there many examples of tango gurus who have developed dedicated successors to tango gurus?

Tango - UNESCO Intangible Cultural Heritage

The Argentinian and Uruguayan tradition of the Tango, now familiar around the world, was developed by the urban lower classes in Buenos Aires and Montevideo in the Rio de la Plata basin. Among this mix of European immigrants to the region, descendents of African slaves and the natives of the...

ich.unesco.org

There are official ambassadors and curators of the dance and this: https://turismo.buenosaires.gob.ar/es/atractivo/academia-nacional-de-tango

Many of the well known dancers have academic qualifications in Folkloric Dance (not sure what it is in Spanish). I think most of the current efforts are about archiving and preserving rather than defining what tango is or is not.

The previous movement was the so-called nuevo movement which aimed to break tango into it's constituent parts and push creativity into all the possibilities

An interesting interview with Fabian Salas in which he credits Gustavo Naveira with creating/discovering the ocho milonguero https://tangoforge.com/fabian-salas-keith-elshaw-2001/

The inherent difference between Ballet and other dances is that Ballet is an artform developed for presentation and display and performed by artists in a similar way to a play being performed by actors. Where tango is a dance of customs and culture which developed as an activity for everyday folk to enjoy alongside the music.

 

[Brummbaer]

I meant really that there's a whole bunch of external appearance stuff that people often focus and spend a lot of effort on, that doesn't really make their dance feel any better. I believe that good fundamentals and musicality just automatically look good

Sort of agree, but how do you know they're 'good' unless you learn/are taught and someone observes? I'll go with the mirrored studio or video to self-analysis, but there are obvious culprits, from their lack of floorcraft, who think they're better and beyond the codigos.

From the point of view of promoting tango I think there's some value in dancing in public spaces, and if there's multiple dancers present to have the floorcraft to do some of the tango "signature" moves without hitting each other or spectators

I'll go with that. Just need some fine weather and preparation for the floor.

Sadly we seem to have list the old covered bandstands in the park, and the permission to use them. You'll probably get escorted from the UK shopping mall since it's a privately-owned place. I have seen, and taken part, in some covered space in London.

We got our first taste of real tango in Switzerland at a free tango orchestra performance in a local Schloss.

 

[opendoor]

..tango.. has not developed a widely accepted higher art form..
..are there many examples of tango gurus who have developed.. successors to tango gurus?

Good question, itwillhappen! Tango is an transition state. This is best illustrated by the term "orquesta típica". Típica means "no longer folklore" but also "not yet orchestral or synfonical". Something quite similar is written on the menu card of the Greek restaurant in my street: „Greek specialties“. So you don't get the meal on your plate as originally as the hypothetical mother-in-law would have done on the Pellepones. On the other hand, it is not as academic as a star chef would serve it. Also tango is an intermediate state, an in-between, a limbo, kind of no man's land. If my knees hadn't broken, I would have started a postgraduate course in dance pedagogy. But now I'm stuck in that no man's land of tango.
Think you know that famous quote "..was tanzt will anders werden, und dahin abreisen" (my English is kind of lousy so please excuse for this translation "..they who dance want to alter and set off that way".
(by the marxist philosopher Ernst Bloch "Principle of Hope, Vol. 1", 1938)