How well can you judge your partner's preference/skill level?

[noobster]

Ever been wrong or surprised?

I had an interesting experience this week. I'd danced with this one lead for the first and only time a couple of weeks ago, and found he had a somewhat rough and unpleasant (though not to the point of dangerous) lead. I pegged him for a very new dancer or someone who for whatever reason had just never learned a gentler lead, and made a mental note to stay on the other side of the floor.

Then I ran into the same guy at the bar this week and we started chatting. He at one point said that one always had to adapt to one's follower, as some wanted a gentle lead and others a more powerful one, etc. I said (in the third person and as diplomatically as possible) that my opinion was that if a follower had to be pushed through a move it meant she was not capable of completing it by herself, in which case the leader should probably not be leading it in the first place.

So then we had a dance (and several more later in the evening), and he was like a different person. Presto! He had a perfectly pleasant, serviceable lead. So clearly this guy misjudged my preference (for whatever reason, thought I wanted to be trundled about the floor) and I his (I thought he was doing that because he didn't know better, not because he thought I'd like it!).

I've also noticed that some leads will actually not be very good at picking up the follow's skill level. E.g., I originally used to warn people that I wasn't very experienced; but that often resulted in dances with only basics and single turns, and no matter how cleanly those were executed some leaders would never step it up. (Not that I mind simple dances - actually I love them, especially if they are appropriate to the music - but a little variety is always nice as well.) Alternatively there were always a few guys who insisted on hauling me through various pretzely moves long before I was capable of following them. (Although it's not clear to me if that was a result of misjudgement or of wilfully ignoring the problem.)

 

[dancedude314]

Ever been wrong or surprised?

I had an interesting experience this week. I'd danced with this one lead for the first and only time a couple of weeks ago, and found he had a somewhat rough and unpleasant (though not to the point of dangerous) lead. I pegged him for a very new dancer or someone who for whatever reason had just never learned a gentler lead, and made a mental note to stay on the other side of the floor.

Then I ran into the same guy at the bar this week and we started chatting. He at one point said that one always had to adapt to one's follower, as some wanted a gentle lead and others a more powerful one, etc. I said (in the third person and as diplomatically as possible) that my opinion was that if a follower had to be pushed through a move it meant she was not capable of completing it by herself, in which case the leader should probably not be leading it in the first place.

So then we had a dance (and several more later in the evening), and he was like a different person. Presto! He had a perfectly pleasant, serviceable lead. So clearly this guy misjudged my preference (for whatever reason, thought I wanted to be trundled about the floor) and I his (I thought he was doing that because he didn't know better, not because he thought I'd like it!).

I concur that some followers want gentle leads, while others expect a considerable amount of force. I think one can very quickly acertain which category a follower belongs to by beginning the dance with a simple turn and a CBL. I'm skeptical that someone would require a full dance and an after-dance chat to adjust to a follower's preferences.

Incidentally, there's a reason why beginning leaders have forceful leads. Most beginning leaders are accustomed to dancing with beginning followers. If you lead a beginning follower too lightly, they won't know what to do, and they could end up almost anywhere but where you wanted them to go. In addition to this, beginning followers tend not to have the right amount of firmness in their arms. This reduces the efficiency of the connection between the motion of the leader and that of the follower, which in turn compels the leader to use more force while executing turns, etc.

 

[noobster]

I think one can very quickly acertain which category a follower belongs to by beginning the dance with a simple turn and a CBL. I'm skeptical that someone would require a full dance and an after-dance chat to adjust to a follower's preferences.

That's actually kind of the point. Most leaders seem to think they can figure the follow out pretty well after a turn and CBL; but clearly some of them aren't that great about it. (Especially if, as I've found, I've biased them by unnecessary verbal feedback.) Lots of leaders are very intuitive and accurate about it - you might be one of them - but some of them aren't. I wonder if they know who they are.

Incidentally, there's a reason why beginning leaders have forceful leads. Most beginning leaders are accustomed to dancing with beginning followers. If you lead a beginning follower too lightly, they won't know what to do, and they could end up almost anywhere but where you wanted them to go. In addition to this, beginning followers tend not to have the right amount of firmness in their arms.

Having made some lame attempts to lead beginning follows myself, I'm well aware of the problem. But actually it's not true that all, or even most, new leaders have forceful leads. A lot of them actually have overly lax and weak leads. And I've run into a couple who seemed naturally to have very nice leads right from the start.

 

[sweavo]

That's actually kind of the point. Most leaders seem to think they can figure the follow out pretty well after a turn and CBL; but clearly some of them aren't that great about it. (Especially if, as I've found, I've biased them by unnecessary verbal feedback.) Lots of leaders are very intuitive and accurate about it - you might be one of them - but some of them aren't. I wonder if they know who they are.


Having made some lame attempts to lead beginning follows myself, I'm well aware of the problem. But actually it's not true that all, or even most, new leaders have forceful leads. A lot of them actually have overly lax and weak leads. And I've run into a couple who seemed naturally to have very nice leads right from the start.

True. My view is that you'll get both ends of the spectrum in beginners - most will be "wet lettuce" leads which teaches follows to back-lead, then the leads who have at least the idea are going to have to wrestle with the back-leading follows to get them to do what's really led... It's nothing much to worry about though as long as there are dancers around who will dance with them and allow them to adjust to the normal levels of tension etc.

 

[quixotedlm]

'tis hard to misjudge if you start with the gentlest lead possible, and progressively correct it until you are calibrated effectively...

 

[dancedude314]

'tis hard to misjudge if you start with the gentlest lead possible, and progressively correct it until you are calibrated effectively...

Really? I think the leader and follower should try to meet each other half-way. I've been trying to develop a mild, but firm lead in salsa. I am willing to adjust to make it a little more firm or a little less firm. But I'm not interested in adjusting to people who expect ultra-light leads, because it's just doesn't seem that practical for most dancing situations.

It's possible of course that I'm just misinterpreting what people mean by strong leads and light leads. I'm not a follower, so I haven't been dragged around the floor by over-agressive leaders.

 

[noobster]

I'm not interested in adjusting to people who expect ultra-light leads, because it's just doesn't seem that practical for most dancing situations.

Well. This topic is getting way off-track (it's turning into another strong-vs-light-lead thread, which wasn't what I intended as we've already had a couple of those recently). But I'm curious to hear why you don't think a light lead is practical? What's not practical about it?

I will say that I have never encountered a lead that I felt was 'too light' (note there's a huge difference between a light lead and an unclear or frameless, "noodly" lead).

 

[quixotedlm]

Well. This topic is getting way off-track (it's turning into another strong-vs-light-lead thread, which wasn't what I intended as we've already had a couple of those recently). But I'm curious to hear why you don't think a light lead is practical? What's not practical about it?

I will say that I have never encountered a lead that I felt was 'too light' (note there's a huge difference between a light lead and an unclear or frameless, "noodly" lead).

An ultra light lead is practical in social dancing. But learning to be clear _and_ ultra-light is fairly hard.

 

[dancedude314]

Well. This topic is getting way off-track (it's turning into another strong-vs-light-lead thread, which wasn't what I intended as we've already had a couple of those recently). But I'm curious to hear why you don't think a light lead is practical? What's not practical about it?

I will say that I have never encountered a lead that I felt was 'too light' (note there's a huge difference between a light lead and an unclear or frameless, "noodly" lead).

It's not practical for several reasons:

1) A large percentage of the women I've danced with, in clubs and in classes, do not have a lot of formal training, and are therefore not very sensitive as followers. If you give them an ultra-light lead, they simply won't know where to go, even if you confine yourself to beginner moves.

2) Suppose my hand is on the woman's shoulder or waist after doing some pattern, and I want to end with a spin. If I want her to do more than just 1 or 2 turns, I have to put a little bit of force into that spin. I certainly can't get away with an "ultra-light" amount of pressure.

3) Same goes for leading into and out of kicks in swing. When I have a lady kicking between my legs in swing, and I want to end the pattern, it's important to give her a reasonably good outward push to get her to do a rock-step. An ultra-light touch in this situation could easily result in me getting kicked in the legs.

I'm not advocating ripping the follower's arms out of her sockets here. And I also acknowledged in an earlier post that my idea of "ultra-light" might be different from yours. I agree that when a very experienced leader is dancing with a very sensitive follower, the leader can probably get away with using a very light touch. But how many of these outstanding followers does one typically encounter at a club? My sense of things is that they constitute a pretty small minority of the available dancers in any given scene.

In any event, if read my earlier post more carefully, you'll notice that I was advocating lightening one's leads up to a point. I just meant that, past a certain point, a follower needs to get over the expectation that the leader be able to move her all around the dance floor using psychokinesis. Even if being able to impart that feeling to a follower is the ultimate goal of a leader, it's just not fair to expect that from every shmoe you encounter at a club.

Nor should you be too critical of leaders who are uninterested in acquiring that level of precision. After all, for most people, dancing is a hobby, not a profession. It's supposed to be fun, whether or not you get to perform it at a semi-professional level. In a social environment, you should be thrilled to encounter a guy who's even interested in partner dancing. It surprises and dismays me that so many posts on this forum are devoted to complaining about inexperienced leaders. It comes down to this: either you're having fun with dancing or you're not. If you're having fun, then the occasional bad lead shouldn't really bother you. If you're not having fun, then you should stop.

 

[noobster]

Nor should you be too critical of leaders who are uninterested in acquiring that level of precision. After all, for most people, dancing is a hobby, not a profession. It's supposed to be fun, whether or not you get to perform it at a semi-professional level. In a social environment, you should be thrilled to encounter a guy who's even interested in partner dancing.

Well, I'm lucky in that I live in a huge and thriving salsa scene, and so my chance of encountering a man at a salsa social who is uninterested in partner dancing hovers around nil. And by the way I've encountered very few leads I'd actually categorize as rough. The majority of them are reasonably smooth and light.

And that's got less than nothing to do with performing as far as I can see. Any schmoe can perform, there are performances and competitions for dancers at every level, including completely inexperienced beginners. I haven't noticed that the men who are on performance teams are generally better social dancers than anyone else. They certainly don't have nicer leads, on average.

It surprises and dismays me that so many posts on this forum are devoted to complaining about inexperienced leaders.

Huh? Who's complaining about inexperienced leaders? (Actually you're the one who brought up the point about beginners in the first place.) That's got nothing to do with the original intention of the post, and by the way I am extremely friendly and encouraging to leaders who have just started (I'm not that far ahead of them) and I've had a lot of them thank me for it.

It comes down to this: either you're having fun with dancing or you're not. If you're having fun, then the occasional bad lead shouldn't really bother you. If you're not having fun, then you should stop.

Whoa. Looks like somebody ate a crab cake today.

 

[dancedude314]

Whoa. Looks like somebody ate a crab cake today.

Is it really just me that senses the negative energy in this forum? I think there's a great deal of it lurking behind all the smileys.

 

[dgcasey]

An ultra light lead is practical in social dancing. But learning to be clear _and_ ultra-light is fairly hard.

As was pointed out to me last week in a coaching session with Jim Desmond, the lead's right hand should feel like he is holding an egg against the back of his lady. I would guess firm enough to hold the egg there, but not so firm as to make a mess of her dress.

 

[dancedude314]

Ever been wrong or surprised?

I had an interesting experience this week. I'd danced with this one lead for the first and only time a couple of weeks ago, and found he had a somewhat rough and unpleasant (though not to the point of dangerous) lead. I pegged him for a very new dancer or someone who for whatever reason had just never learned a gentler lead, and made a mental note to stay on the other side of the floor.

Then I ran into the same guy at the bar this week and we started chatting. He at one point said that one always had to adapt to one's follower, as some wanted a gentle lead and others a more powerful one, etc. I said (in the third person and as diplomatically as possible) that my opinion was that if a follower had to be pushed through a move it meant she was not capable of completing it by herself, in which case the leader should probably not be leading it in the first place.

So then we had a dance (and several more later in the evening), and he was like a different person. Presto! He had a perfectly pleasant, serviceable lead. So clearly this guy misjudged my preference (for whatever reason, thought I wanted to be trundled about the floor) and I his (I thought he was doing that because he didn't know better, not because he thought I'd like it!).

I've also noticed that some leads will actually not be very good at picking up the follow's skill level. E.g., I originally used to warn people that I wasn't very experienced; but that often resulted in dances with only basics and single turns, and no matter how cleanly those were executed some leaders would never step it up. (Not that I mind simple dances - actually I love them, especially if they are appropriate to the music - but a little variety is always nice as well.) Alternatively there were always a few guys who insisted on hauling me through various pretzely moves long before I was capable of following them. (Although it's not clear to me if that was a result of misjudgement or of wilfully ignoring the problem.)

At the risk of sounding petty, here you are, bringing up complaints about beginning leads in social situations. This is precisely what I was responding to (I wasn't just bringing the subject up out of the blue).

With regard to performing--I didn't mean performing in competition. I was using the word to mean "doing".

Regarding my comment that "if you're not having fun, you should quit dancing": Whether you realize it or not, your post communicates a rather negative attitude toward the social dancing experience. You tell leaders that you're not experienced, but then complain that they stick to basics. You talk about "staying on the other side of the floor" when a lead doesn't meet with your approval. These seem to me to be really minor inconveniences. Either these inconveniences get in the way of having fun, or they don't. If they don't, then I don't see the purpose in dwelling on them. If they do get in the way of fun, then you should take a break from dancing. It's as simple as that.

 

[noobster]

Mods: Can you delete this thread please? It's just gotten way out of hand. Thanks, and sorry for the general nastiness that's arisen.

 

[dancedude314]

Mods: Can you delete this thread please? It's just gotten way out of hand. Thanks, and sorry for the general nastiness that's arisen.

All I did was offer a few criticisms about what you said in your post. You implied that I wasn't addressing what you were writing about, so I drew specific examples. This is hardly what I would call a vicious attack.

I am not trying to piss you off or anything like that. I was merely trying to make you and others aware of a certain negative attitude that underlies a lot of the posts on this forum.

I certainly don't see how anything I've said could fall into the category of "nastiness".