Improving Technique

[David]

Also, a second point that is more on subject.
This weekend i was taking a private with a visiting WCS teacher from Omaha Nebraska (Paul (PJ) Fritzler, anyone? anyone? no... Ohwell. Anyhew, ive always loved the definite, yet gentle way he leads, but on Sat, i noticed that his hand position was quite different then anyone else id ever danced with before. It was like instead of just hooking around the fingers and palm area, he had ahold of somewhere around the heel of my hand, But wasnt grabbing, it was still really soft. I didnt really look at what he was doing, i was focusing on other things (triple step AND A), and am only really remembering it now.
Is this just another style of doing things that i just havent been exposed to cause of my relatively small shpere of people i get to dance with?

I know one or rwo people who lead like this, girls hand (around the heel of the palm) held firmly but gently between thumb and index/middle finger. Interestingly they're all ex-London. Tried it, doesn't do anything for me though.

 

[africana]

cool excercise with the egg!
yeah cupping for spins has been pretty easy to maintain so far, and helps the mechanics....but it's reconnection from odd/transitonal positions that still involve a bit of fumbling :?
e.g. sometimes when he grabs from the back, say after a single or double to put me in hammerlock postion, my left hand is behind me and doesn't have the same hook/grip as when reconnecting from in front from open postion with the right hand.
the hand becomes flat, which is not good because I ideally want to keep the tips of the (four) fingers bent and ready to hook with his hand - BUT doesn't this indicate some form of anticipation? because it's kind of unnatural to keep hands hooked/cupped even when the move has placed your hands out of view or out of his obvious view.

Actually reconnecting my left hand to either of the lead's hands is generally more awkward when trying to keep the cup than my right hand (much easier!)

No need to cup if the lead doesn't have your hand at the time. Indeed you should open the hand if he doesn't have it to make it easier to reconnect.

Ok, got the opposite feedback from someone else, but I think it's just a timing issue .i.e. relax until he reaches for my hand and then "assume the position"

thanks guys 8)

I'll be happy when I can no longer *think* about these issues and just do it comfortably all the time with almost any lead

 

[David]

Ok, got the opposite feedback from someone else, but I think it's just a timing issue .i.e. relax until he reaches for my hand and then "assume the position"

thanks guys 8)

I'll be happy when I can no longer *think* about these issues and just do it comfortably all the time with almost any lead

That's about it really. Like I said about "open"... think of it as partially cupped and you should be good. And should always be ready to go to the proper cup the moment the lead takes your hand.

Hope this helps you out.

 

[tsb]

cool excercise with the egg!
yeah cupping for spins has been pretty easy to maintain so far, and helps the mechanics....but it's reconnection from odd/transitonal positions that still involve a bit of fumbling :?
e.g. sometimes when he grabs from the back, say after a single or double to put me in hammerlock postion, my left hand is behind me and doesn't have the same hook/grip as when reconnecting from in front from open postion with the right hand.
the hand becomes flat, which is not good because I ideally want to keep the tips of the (four) fingers bent and ready to hook with his hand - BUT doesn't this indicate some form of anticipation? because it's kind of unnatural to keep hands hooked/cupped even when the move has placed your hands out of view or out of his obvious view.

Actually reconnecting my left hand to either of the lead's hands is generally more awkward when trying to keep the cup than my right hand (much easier!)

No need to cup if the lead doesn't have your hand at the time. Indeed you should open the hand if he doesn't have it to make it easier to reconnect.
E.G. if the lead throws your hand up but doesn't offer a hand for yours to come back down in to, appart from your hand needing to stay up until he shows you what to do with it, it should be open as the chances are that he's going to change hands and give you a spin. If the hand was still cupped that would make it more difficult.

Guess I should mention that open is basically what your relaxed hand looks like. So not flat, suppose you could refer to it as partially cupped.

Hadn't thought of the egg for the cup shape (for finger/hand styling yes), but that should be pretty much the perfect shape etc. Will have to remember that one.

Re connecting from in front (not sure yet how it works from other postions)
One thing that a friend mentioned is to just let the wrists rest on the leads hands, to give more connection (and some tension) between arms.
I noticed I often hold up my arms/wrists from resting probably because I subconsciously worry about carrying all my own weight duhhhhh

Anyway doing that seems to leave the wrist to elbow part of the arm pretty loose, but a bit more controllable

I guess whatever works for you here is good, although I can only really picture how you would get your wrists against the leads hands in a relatively few positions. Once you've got the hand cup mastered that should give all the connection you need when in the open position.

like cracking a whip, with the main portion of the impetus being applied AFTER 9 o'clock (12 o'clock being directly behind the follower from the leader's POV) through maybe 12-1 o'clock (assuming a right turn for the follower) (& starting sooner tends to push the follower off her axis) so it's not continuous throughout the turn but only through about 25-30% of the actual turn.

The halo should be just above the lady's head (or hair do), no more than about 2 inches and preferably only about 1. Only thing I'd say here is that I've found changing the main impetus to be in the forward section of the halo, starting just after 1 and finishing just after 3, to be more effective and controlled. Less likely to unbalance the lady and in multiple spins she tends to move towards you rather than away.

you're right - if you're using your left hand. i'm using to doing multiple turns cross-handed (right to right). and what you said also applies if you're crosshanded left to left (like after some sort of windmill move) but if i'm left to left i prefer to actually start the torque around waist level at 1 o'clock like i'm starting a lawn mower - the impetus tends to be more easily transmitted to her center of gravity starting there.

also, the diameter of the halo around her head may vary depending on the relative length of her forearms - women whose forearms are relatively longer compared to their upper arms seem to benefit from a wider diameter of the halo where the natural anatomic tendency is to make the halo smaller with the angle of the elbow being acute (< 90) - the closer to 90 degrees that angle is, the more torque reaches the body instead of being absorbed by her arm tension. and if you and your partner can maintain it at more than 90 degrees, the less torque you need in terms of leverage. this also explains why it's harder to lead a turn if the follower allows her hand to drift upward - it generally also results in the halo becoming smaller in diameter...

 

[David]

you're right - if you're using your left hand. i'm using to doing multiple turns cross-handed (right to right). and what you said also applies if you're crosshanded left to left (like after some sort of windmill move) but if i'm left to left i prefer to actually start the torque around waist level at 1 o'clock like i'm starting a lawn mower - the impetus tends to be more easily transmitted to her center of gravity starting there.

I use the forward section with either hand. Only for multiple spins naturally :lol: For singles, or the first of multiples, then I use that same away section of the halo but with a lighter (so to speak) lead.

also, the diameter of the halo around her head may vary depending on the relative length of her forearms - women whose forearms are relatively longer compared to their upper arms seem to benefit from a wider diameter of the halo where the natural anatomic tendency is to make the halo smaller with the angle of the elbow being acute (< 90) - the closer to 90 degrees that angle is, the more torque reaches the body instead of being absorbed by her arm tension. and if you and your partner can maintain it at more than 90 degrees, the less torque you need in terms of leverage. this also explains why it's harder to lead a turn if the follower allows her hand to drift upward - it generally also results in the halo becoming smaller in diameter...

Mmm, important point indeed. And something which seems to get over looked a bit also. The lady's elbow should be as close to 90 degrees as possible, and just as importantly the arm needs to stay as close to being directly in front of the body as possible. So if the lady were to watch the whole way around the spin she would, other than getting dizzy, see her arm in her direct field of vision for the full spin.

 

[tsb]

you're right - if you're using your left hand. i'm using to doing multiple turns cross-handed (right to right). and what you said also applies if you're crosshanded left to left (like after some sort of windmill move) but if i'm left to left i prefer to actually start the torque around waist level at 1 o'clock like i'm starting a lawn mower - the impetus tends to be more easily transmitted to her center of gravity starting there.

I use the forward section with either hand. Only for multiple spins naturally :lol: For singles, or the first of multiples, then I use that same away section of the halo but with a lighter (so to speak) lead.

also, the diameter of the halo around her head may vary depending on the relative length of her forearms - women whose forearms are relatively longer compared to their upper arms seem to benefit from a wider diameter of the halo where the natural anatomic tendency is to make the halo smaller with the angle of the elbow being acute (< 90) - the closer to 90 degrees that angle is, the more torque reaches the body instead of being absorbed by her arm tension. and if you and your partner can maintain it at more than 90 degrees, the less torque you need in terms of leverage. this also explains why it's harder to lead a turn if the follower allows her hand to drift upward - it generally also results in the halo becoming smaller in diameter...

Mmm, important point indeed. And something which seems to get over looked a bit also. The lady's elbow should be as close to 90 degrees as possible, and just as importantly the arm needs to stay as close to being directly in front of the body as possible. So if the lady were to watch the whole way around the spin she would, other than getting dizzy, see her arm in her direct field of vision for the full spin.

which also protects her shoulder from absorbing the brunt of the torque (as soon as i feel the shoulder open all torque stops on my part and the arm comes down ASAP).

and the end result of the 'whip' action facilitates spotting for the follower.

maybe it helps to torque from 1-3 south of the equator...

 

[azzey]

cool excercise with the egg!
yeah cupping for spins has been pretty easy to maintain so far, and helps the mechanics....but it's reconnection from odd/transitonal positions that still involve a bit of fumbling :?
e.g. sometimes when he grabs from the back, say after a single or double to put me in hammerlock postion, my left hand is behind me and doesn't have the same hook/grip as when reconnecting from in front from open postion with the right hand.

the hand becomes flat, which is not good because I ideally want to keep the tips of the (four) fingers bent and ready to hook with his hand - BUT doesn't this indicate some form of anticipation? because it's kind of unnatural to keep hands hooked/cupped even when the move has placed your hands out of view or out of his obvious view.

Actually reconnecting my left hand to either of the lead's hands is generally more awkward when trying to keep the cup than my right hand (much easier!)

It would only be anticipation if you weren't making the hook all the time. i.e. a lot of spin techniques involve keeping the hook. When in open position use the hook. When in hammerlock position use the hook. When doing open breaks use the hook.

That leaves: stop and go where you need to open your hand to feel the stop, various wraps where your hooked hand will be palm against your body, various copas where your hands need to be almost flat with your arms extended out, etc.

In my opinion (as a follower myself) you'd be better off keeping the hook all the time and changing for the exceptions rather than vice versa. A lot of girls use the hook hand position as ladies styling by rotating the wrists when they're not being led.

On an alternative note the follower should allow the leader to place her hands in the correct position, not the other way around. As long as the position is not painful for you. It annoys me when an intermediate follower tries to lead her hands into the wrong position for a particular move which is either more uncomfortable than the one I would have chosen and/or makes it much harder to lead the move.

Good followers apply varying amounts of tension depending on the position of her arms relative to the move, rather than trying to control the position, therefore aiding the leader in making the leading more smoother, flowing and enjoyable.

 

[africana]

Good followers apply varying amounts of tension depending on the position of her arms relative to the move, rather than trying to control the position, therefore aiding the leader in making the leading more smoother, flowing and enjoyable.

Lots of great pointers guys, and I've seen some nice improvements lately because I have consciously focused on it...

but now I wanna admit that sometimes I get sick of being a "good" submissive follower :twisted: any ladies get into those moods?
happens mostly when the music energy is just soooo up there (especially with live music), so intense that focusing on following and being responsive seems much more boring incomparison to really dancing to the music,

it's like flashing a red cloth at a bull, taunting it, when all of a sudden it bolts, rebels and charges :twisted: that's how i feel sometimes

can't always be submissive
can't always be tamed
can't always be controlled

I have a few partners who recognize that crazed look in my eyes and then they let me go for shines :lol: cos in that moment no technique in the world will do it for me I just get sooo excited, somewhat oblivious and animated. just watch out!

but then the quiet part of the song resumes and I'm ready again to try being the "good' follower

it's like a little devil on my shoulder tempting me to dance how I feel when I feel like it :twisted: some days the devil wins, and other days the lead wins, depending on how hot the songs are, and on the lead's ability to be flexible, play with the music and with me
I guess it's a form of "hijacking" the lead :?: some guys love it, some guys feel powerless :lol:

 

[tacad]

but now I wanna admit that sometimes I get sick of being a "good" submissive follower :twisted: any ladies get into those moods?
happens mostly when the music energy is just soooo up there (especially with live music), so intense that focusing on following and being responsive seems much more boring incomparison to really dancing to the music,

I'm really enjoying this thread, by the way!

My teacher once said that how you move is more imortant than the moves you actually do. Does that apply here? Can you girate more or less depending on the music?

Hmmm. Can you put up a fight somehow? Be an "bad', awnry follower? You know, make him earn it?

 

[africana]

Hmmm. Can you put up a fight somehow? Be an "bad', awnry follower? You know, make him earn it?

hahaa!! yes i sometimes dare him to keep up with me, and if he does (for example challenging my moves and outshining me till I'm tired, displaying more passion than the average guy) I do simmer down a bit a let him be the man :lol:
but yeah depending on the music my body does some cool hot stuff that may not always fit in with the strict lead-follow "code of conduct" :shock: 8) i swear it's like being possesed sometimes

 

[tacad]

Very cool!

 

[MacMoto]

I love to spin spin spin spin spinspinspinspinspinspinspinspinspinspinspin !

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Okay, you are officially barred from the DF Spin Haters Club. :twisted:

I wonder if I'll eventually come to like spins if/when I get decent at it. :roll: Off to restroom for more practice...

 

[azzey]

I love to spin spin spin spin spinspinspinspinspinspinspinspinspinspinspin !

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Okay, you are officially barred from the DF Spin Haters Club. :twisted:

I wonder if I'll eventually come to like spins if/when I get decent at it. :roll: Off to restroom for more practice...

Sandra D is doing another spins workshop on Saturday the 18th June, in case you're interested. I'm doing it as a follower for a laugh and to practice my spin following technique. :lol:

Actually, I've been a bad boy and have not been practicing my spins in the last couple of months so they've gone down hill a bit. :cry:

 

[africana]

also, the diameter of the halo around her head may vary depending on the relative length of her forearms - women whose forearms are relatively longer compared to their upper arms seem to benefit from a wider diameter of the halo where the natural anatomic tendency is to make the halo smaller with the angle of the elbow being acute (< 90) - the closer to 90 degrees that angle is, the more torque reaches the body instead of being absorbed by her arm tension. and if you and your partner can maintain it at more than 90 degrees, the less torque you need in terms of leverage. this also explains why it's harder to lead a turn if the follower allows her hand to drift upward - it generally also results in the halo becoming smaller in diameter...

Mmm, important point indeed. And something which seems to get over looked a bit also. The lady's elbow should be as close to 90 degrees as possible, and just as importantly the arm needs to stay as close to being directly in front of the body as possible. So if the lady were to watch the whole way around the spin she would, other than getting dizzy, see her arm in her direct field of vision for the full spin.

Ok here's the good stuff.

Guys, about the halo, it is the follower's job to create/maintain it? Probably so, but it's hard if the arm is shifting (which it shouldn't)
I guess one issue is isolating the head movement (spotting) from the arm/shoulder...
One issue is also with heavy leading, I think it affects my ability to keep that 90 degrees with stiff arm

 

[africana]

The halo should be just above the lady's head (or hair do), no more than about 2 inches and preferably only about 1. Only thing I'd say here is that I've found changing the main impetus to be in the forward section of the halo, starting just after 1 and finishing just after 3, to be more effective and controlled. Less likely to unbalance the lady and in multiple spins she tends to move towards you rather than away.

Hey could you elaborate on the effect of the torque and/or halo on the followers direction of motion? I mean why (or better yet, how) does she move towards you instead of away or staying on the spot? I should think staying on the spot is best.

Right now I have the problem of sometimes drifting away from the lead ugh :?