Improvising the Dance

[bordertangoman]

Tried to dance milonga with someone I used to enjoy dancing with. Her idea of what is "permitted" has shrunken as she has been... I don't know, indoctrinated. Instead of her vision becoming more broad, it has shrunken.

anyone?)

i'VE had similar experiences;ladies who now only do small steps..
:headwall:

on learning improv; my music teacher would sometimes work with only two notes; four if you included the upper octave or an arpeggio. so if someone wants to improv rhythm inside a pattern/ sequence I think its fine; you dont want too many variables.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Actually, I don't think it does. Assume that you're going to repeat the pattern, and you're already at the cross (5). Leader takes 6 fwd, 7 to the right, 8 is a close. 1 is back & 2 is to the left. You've just danced a square, and will now move forward again to cross.

Two main problems:
1. The initial sidestep to the left is an extra-large one on the part of the leader (and the follower will also get in line with the leader on the cross). Whereas step 7 is a smaller step; and is in fact often a turn (as we discussed earlier), so there's no "return"
2. There are 3 forward steps in the seqence (two up to the cross and one after) andat most 1 backstep. So you're covering a lot of ground.

FWIW, does the 8CB come with strict instructions about direction?

God knows - up until a few days ago I never really thought about it...

 

[UKDancer]

Two main problems:
1. The initial sidestep to the left is an extra-large one on the part of the leader (and the follower will also get in line with the leader on the cross). Whereas step 7 is a smaller step; and is in fact often a turn (as we discussed earlier), so there's no "return"
2. There are 3 forward steps in the seqence (two up to the cross and one after) andat most 1 backstep. So you're covering a lot of ground.

You're just making it up, now!

The leader's sidestep doesn't need to be wide, it just needs to be wider than the follower's. I like to think of it more of a step around my partner (introducing the body turn that will allow me to bring her into line to cross). I know that there is a school of thought that says you don't cross like that, but I frequently do .

Equally, step 7 (side to right) doesn't need to be smaller. I'd only turn it at a corner (unless the new position was required for the figure on the following page). I don't see the problem with the forward steps. Everyone else is just walking, anyway, and we need to keep up.

 

[sixela]

FWIW, does the 8CB come with strict instructions about direction?

The D8CBWBS is a construction. If you advise people to even dance it once, though, it should come with instructions about direction. But then, everything should...

People should be taught simple tricks on how to return to the line of dance when they exit anything (later they can use more complicated tricks or bolt on another sequence, but they should only attempt to do so once they have a life vest under the seat of their pants).

Many teachers spend zero effort on this (and zero effort to convince people to eschew other antisocial behaviour on the social dance floor, e.g. acting like a windshield wiper, not making much forward progress but sweeping through all the lanes).

I think that people should be taught to "improvise" to navigate before they even think to improvise to match the music...

 

[bordertangoman]

i Think we need to apply a bit of Bistro-Maths to this;

firstly on the 8CB; instead of the wide/r sidestep we can lead a small pivot so we are efecttivley walking alongside her (V1) as we do this ( with no extra time) we could go into the cross system for the forward steps to the cross(X1) and by not making a leaders weight change at the cross we return to the parallel system (X2) for the exit step from the cross; we step forward leaders's L foot and turn while we step so now we have our back to the centre of the room; from here we can take take a legal back step, lop off the salida and continue into the next 8CB

(footnote Kasporov used this opening against Deep Thought and gained check mate on move 38; Deep Thought subsequently started singing Daisy Daisy..give me your answer do...)

 

[tangomonkey]

If I did the same with a dance consisting entirely of repeated 8CBs I think that I would expect the dance to have the possibility of being satisfying, and not to have my partner's heart sink. But I suppose I don't mean repeated 8CBs in the sense that they would each be the same - that would be dull.

An exercise my teacher had us do: do the 8CB in a circle. Then use pauses or double-time steps to change the count, so it is no longer an 8CB. And vary the step lengths. So although we all knew what the next step would be, the timing, amount of pivot, and length were highly variable. It was possible eventually to have a nice dance just doing an nCB without covering much ground.

 

[LoveTango]

No, you misunderstand what I meant. I was suggesting that if you were really free to improvise, then just like monkey # 7,854,459 (who has just typed the first Act of Hamlet with only two typos), I might 'improvise' what, coincidentally, is identical to an extended advanced BR tango amalgamation. If you were to observe at the milonga long enough, it should be a mathematical certainty that someone will - except that very probably it would never happen. We are not free to 'improvise', except with the tango vocabulary, of necessity, that vocabulary is made up of short and mostly simple patterns. The building blocks have to be bigger than just single steps in any available direction, because they could produce BR tango, and that would never do.

It prompted me to look up 'improvise' in my Concise OED. I found:

1. Create and perform spontaneously or without preparation.
2. Produce or make (something) from whatever is available.

Is my tango spontaneous? Increasingly, I hope so. Is it made from whatever is available - no, not really. I only use the elements permitted. For elements, you could perfectly easily substitute patterns, and it is a short step from there to figures, and once you have put two figures together, you have satisfied the definition of an amalgamation.

Hmm.

I think the element can be as small as a single step, a turn, a weight change, or a pause, or even a change of tension in the body.

 

[LoveTango]

You said "and my follower will be finding out very soon", so: is really there a moment when she can tell "ok, this is an ocho" before it is finished?
If it is so, then there you are surely not improvising.
Otherwise, you may be improvising.
Of course, in theory, only you can know if you are actually improvising, or you are "doing an ocho" or you are doing a choreography. The point is you CAN improvise.

Followers don't need to recognize the sequence. We don't need guess what is coming. If leading is right, she will dance with the leader.

 

[bordertangoman]

Followers don't need to recognize the sequence. We don't need guess what is coming. If leading is right, she will dance with the leader.

Yes and no; followers rely on recognition of movement;

one early problem is auto-ocho-ing;
another is hesitancy/avoidance if being lead into the man's space
not recognising an alteration eg from a back to forward ocho
knowing when a step is lead before the free foot collects

but as I said earlier, exit-ing from a giro into a walking turn is met with hesitancy by a lot of follwers becuase they dont recognise it; it seems to be a geographical problem; some areas ladies do it with ease, other areas its like you tried to change from fourth to first gear; there is a metaphoric crunching.

 

[opendoor]

Yes and no; followers rely on recognition of movement..

and not of steps or sequences. When I am led, it feels like a hydraulic drifting to the only possible direction.

 

[bordertangoman]

and not of steps or sequences. When I am led, it feels like a hydraulic drifting to the only possible direction.

a nice description....

but sometimes I want a follower who will move to a breath-light touch...

 

[opendoor]

me too, but is there anything more difficult to lead a guy?

 

[LoveTango]

Yes and no; followers rely on recognition of movement;

one early problem is auto-ocho-ing;
another is hesitancy/avoidance if being lead into the man's space
not recognising an alteration eg from a back to forward ocho
knowing when a step is lead before the free foot collects

but as I said earlier, exit-ing from a giro into a walking turn is met with hesitancy by a lot of follwers becuase they dont recognise it; it seems to be a geographical problem; some areas ladies do it with ease, other areas its like you tried to change from fourth to first gear; there is a metaphoric crunching.

Don't you think the problem of hesitancy/avoidance are caused of pattern recognizing? If the follower assumes that the leader would dance with a pattern and she tries to recognize the pattern, then when there is a conflict between what being expected and being danced, problem, she would hesitate, trying to "re-calculate" (I borrowed this term from GPS).
However, if the follower doesn't concern about pattern, hesitation should be less of a problem. Just follow what is natural at each moment.

 

[chanchan]

but as I said earlier, exit-ing from a giro into a walking turn is met with hesitancy by a lot of follwers becuase they dont recognise it; it seems to be a geographical problem;

It is not a geographical problem, the problem is that they recognize the giro (molinete) and don't recognize the walking turn. But if they just follow and the leader leads, they don't need to recognize anything.

If I give a breath-light touch is only beacause I want a breath-light movement. If I give an incomplete lead is beacuse I want an incomplete movement. If I want to lead an ocho I will lead every single movement of the ocho, and every movement will have the specific nuance that I want to give to it. I don't think there is any kind of recognition in this process.

 

[bordertangoman]

Don't you think the problem of hesitancy/avoidance are caused of pattern recognizing? If the follower assumes that the leader would dance with a pattern and she tries to recognize the pattern, then when there is a conflict between what being expected and being danced, problem, she would hesitate, trying to "re-calculate" (I borrowed this term from GPS).
However, if the follower doesn't concern about pattern, hesitation should be less of a problem. Just follow what is natural at each moment.

i think thats a nice hypothesis but omits the fact that human brain is geared to recognise patterns, after all thats what music is, we are anticipating that the next beat is coming at the same interval as the last ( except in Chinese and Japanese music)

so saying "if the follower doesnt concern about pattern" is about as hopeful as telling her not to listen to the music...or shouting RELAX YOUR LEGS at her....

Comparing a woman to GPS software is ........ trouble